The Silmarillion - General Discussion

Philipa · Post by **Philipa** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:47 pm

I have a question...it seems that the individuals who fall in love outside their own race are doomed to sadness. These Elven woman who fall for a man...

It seems to be a theme repeated several times. Was this an idea Tolkien was trying to explore through his stories?

Varda · Post by **Varda** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 1:48 am

But can we say ALL elven women were "doomed to sadness?" While Lúthien suffered many trials, in the end she was with her beloved, Beren.

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:44 am

Also, it is widely believed that Tuor and Idril succeeded in reaching the Undying Lands, where he was granted the life of the Eldar. That sounds like a happy ending to me, despite the sadness that preceded it. I would also argue that Arwen's fate was ultimately a happy one. She may have despaired after Aragorn's death, but I guarantee you she was overjoyed to discover him waiting for her in the afterlife of the Edain "beyond the confines of the world." Like Luthien and Beren, I'm sure they were reunited beyond death.

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:13 pm

Perhaps the Doom of Mandos covers the unhappy fate of all who have come to Middle Earth. Yet, despite the long defeat, one must chose to live authenticaly, and that means to love. From Beren and Luthien to Aragorn and Arwen, we have an unbroken theme that despite the tragedies of exisitence, love trancends all.

Philipa · Post by **Philipa** » Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:59 pm

Yes Bruce hope is the one theme which runs through all of the tales from Arda. And as always, it is the act of falling in love that is easy. Being in love is hard work.

I am curious...which tales strike you at your heart. Is there a favorite tale or part of a story which moves you greatly?

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:32 pm

They all move me because all of the stories of the heirs of Beren and Luthien share great love and purpose. I often wonder in our times, where one's needs are primary and love is a commodity, if it is posible to have such a heroic love. In small part I know I have loved by having raised a foster child, for it was inspired by the ethos I had come to embrace through Tolkien's works.

Philipa · Post by **Philipa** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:37 pm

That is lovely Bruce, I read these love stories and I think to myself 'is my love a big love as Tolkien has written them?' Love at such great odds is so foriegn to me. I read they happen to others but I am yet as challenged.

I'd like to hear other members thoughts on the love stories in The Sil. Is there a story you identify with?

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Thu Sep 29, 2005 5:19 pm

It's not romantic love, but the fact that Eru didn't erase Melkor out of existence speaks of an important kind of love to me.

Varda · Post by **Varda** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:08 am

Maybe not a story that I can "indentify" with...but one that I wish were possible, that of Lúthien Tinúviel and Beren.

She gave up so much to be with him, and he suffered so to be with her...
Merry~

It's not romantic love, but the fact that Eru didn't erase Melkor out of existence speaks of an important kind of love to me.

I have a hard time understanding why Eru did not do this...since Melkor created disharmony and discord pretty much from the beginning .

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:36 pm

I've always thought that his discord was necessary to the music of creation and Eru weaves it in to the good:

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not it's uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine intstrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

Ainulindalë, The Silmarillion

Maybe these 'things more wonderful' are pity, courage, mercy, sacrifice, strength of character and the ability to conciously choose the good - none of which are possible in a perfect world without disharmony and evil. Indeed they wouldn't exist at all in world that was perfect but where it's inhabitants could never truly and deeply appreciate it because they had never seen the alternatives, a world without real choices.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Mon Oct 03, 2005 1:15 am

I like that answer, Iolanthe.

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:59 pm

The tension of free will encompasses desire and reason. Radical evil such as Melkor's began with simple vice. In our own lives we are constantly being tasked to make decisions and never are they under ideal situations.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:44 pm

Bruce, it seems that Melkor's first little decision was to sing his own tune rather than Eru's. Do you think that this was wrong, or was his first 'sin' later on down the line?

Philipa · Post by **Philipa** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:02 pm

Melkor to me was contrary from the start. Like he himself was flaud in the making.

Varda · Post by **Varda** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:21 am

Definitely~ after listening to The Silmarillion again, I have to feel Melkor was very flawed, and turned to evil purposes pretty much right from the beginning. Always coveting , jealous of what had been created, and when he couldn't get what he wanted, tried to destroy what he could.