The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:08 pm

Yes indeedy! They'd be pretty useless in sunlight. I think the pall of darkness is a wonderful device in the story - both practical and symbolic at one and the same time.

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:45 am

Just wanted to be sure to direct all of our Tolkien enthusiasts to the "A Bit of Fun" section. The 2009 Yule Poetry Contest has been closed to submissions, and our gracious leader Riv Res has set up a poll to vote for your favorite of the 8 eligible entries. Be sure to take a gander and vote before January 17!

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:01 pm

I have some questions about the Huorns. I'm thinking about the end of the Battle at Helms Deep, when the orcs escaping from the Battle are all destroyed and, presumably, buried by the Huorns. Much of this is a bit murky in the narrative.

1. Are the Huorns rational beings? Do they act from their own motives or are they directed by Ents?

2. Did they show up at Helms Deep at the direction of Gandalf and/or the Ents? Were they instructed by either one to kill the orcs?

3. Why did Tolkien invent Huorns? Why not just have all this done by Ents?

4. If the orcs had not been destroyed by the Huorns, presumably they would have gone back to Isengard. What might have happened then? (This calls for some conjecture, of course!) If Saruman had been unable to give them further instructions, what would they have done? Would they have joined forces with the Mordor orcs?

Riv Res · Post by **Riv Res** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:49 pm

Merry, here is what I remember of Huorns...

Merry wrote:1. Are the Huorns rational beings? Do they act from their own motives or are they directed by Ents?

Not sure how rational they are, but I do believe the Huorns were strictly controlled by the Ents and not other beings.

Merry wrote:2. Did they show up at Helms Deep at the direction of Gandalf and/or the Ents? Were they instructed by either one to kill the orcs?

Therefore, they must have arrived at Helm's Deep because the Ents wanted them there. (although the Ents may have been directed by Gandalf

) The Huorns hatred of the Orcs was deep, and so their passion to kill them would have needed very little impetus from the Ents.

Merry wrote:3. Why did Tolkien invent Huorns? Why not just have all this done by Ents?

IMHO only, I believe that Tolkien invented them in order to keep the Ents at an arms length from the dirty work. I envision them to be Ents' hit men...aka: hit-ents.

I know that I read somewhere that they were very dangerous.

Merry wrote:4. If the orcs had not been destroyed by the Huorns, presumably they would have gone back to Isengard. What might have happened then? (This calls for some conjecture, of course!) If Saruman had been unable to give them further instructions, what would they have done? Would they have joined forces with the Mordor orcs?

Good question. I honestly think that Tolkien invented the Huorns to make sure that the Orcs never returned to Isengard, and that Saruman's forces met their complete end at Helm's Deep. The Rohirrim would have never been able to answer the call of the Red Arrow had there still been an enemy to fight in Isengard. I think this is Tolkien the military tactition guarding his flank.

It is hard to envision victory at the Pelennor without the ride of the Rohirrim.

Riv Res · Post by **Riv Res** » Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:54 pm

Now...I have a request of everyone.

Can anyone come up with passages from LOTR concerning different species of flowers? I am not necessarily looking for the Tolkien invented species, but would like to know about mentions of the more common varieties...roses, daffodils, violets, irises...etc.

Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated.

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:30 am

Merry, as I recall, Tolkien's invention of the Ents and Huorns was specifically to remedy his great dissatisfaction with Shakespeare's Birnam Wood marching on Dunsinan in the Scottish play. As a young man, he was very excited by the idea of this portion of the Witches' prophecy and was most disappointed with what he regarded as a very feeble fulfillment of the prophecy -- that the soldiers of Macduff's army camouflaged themselves by carrying tree branches, and in this way Birnam Wood marched upon Dunsinan Castle. Hence, in The Professor's great tale, the trees themselves really DO march upon Isengard.

The Huorns were definitely under the control of the Ents, but one senses that they were just BARELY under their control, and that the anger of the Huorns was quite terrible and dangerous. Their anger was directed mostly at the orcs, but could easily be unleashed upon anything that went about on two feet.

You will recall that when Theoden and his company march from the Hornberg to Isengard, they pass through a pathway that opens among the Huorns. After they emerge, Legolas looks back, sees eyes in the trees, and tries to turn his horse to go back into the wood until Gandalf stops him. At that point, two Ents emerge from the wood -- it is their eyes that Legolas saw -- raise their hands to make their sonorous horn calls, and then stride off back into the forest. It is the first time the Ents make themselves known to the Rohirrim and the members of the Fellowship who fought at the Hornburg. Clearly, these Ents were there to command the battalion of Huorns that had been sent to aid in the Battle of the Hornburg. Later, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli learn from Merry and Pippin that Treebeard had indeed sent a large company of Huorns and some Ents off to the Hornburg at Gandalf's request, while the remaining Ents dealt with the assault upon Isengard itself.

Riv, for your request, I would suggest checking the chapters devoted to Frodo and Sam's sojourn through Ithilien. As I recall, The Professor described in great detail the flowers, grasses, trees, etc., in this once cultivated land that had returned to the wild after its settlers were forced to evacuate. Also, any of the chapters set in The Shire, particularly those about the gardens of Bag End, are bound to include passages about all of the lovely flowers to be found there. I'll do some poking around to find particular passages for you -- but those chapters leap to mind immediately.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:46 am

Are you working on something, RR? If so, maybe the membership could be of some systematic help: I'd suggest that those of us who are willing could take a chapter at a time and just list every flower mentioned there. It would be fun!

Thanks for your input, too, RR and Lindariel. One of my students is working on an ethics paper on this topic. If Tolkien wanted to keep the Ents' hands clean, but the Huorns are clearly under their control--Hit Ents

-- the Ents' hands aren't really clean, are they? See the predicament?

Riv Res · Post by **Riv Res** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:26 pm

Yes Merry. I am working on on a Middle-earth floral series.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:08 pm

That's what I guessed--wonderful! Last night, I scanned chapters 1 and 2 of FOTR and here are the flowers mentioned. (Two of them are characters' names, and so I've capped them to show this.)

Lobelia
snap-dragons (with the hyphen, which JRRT must have loved!)
sunflowers
nasturtians (note that it's not 'nasturtiums', the proper name)
Primula
iris

This took all of about 15 minutes to do. I'm going to do chapters 3 and 4 tonight!

Riv Res · Post by **Riv Res** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:04 pm

FABULOUS!!! Thanks so much. Eagerly awaiting anything else you come up with.

Using a different medium this year...markers. Like what I have done so far. Will try to post the first one of elanor soon.

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:00 pm

Very interesting about the Huorns!

Riv, how about water-lilies (Tom Bombadil and Goldberry)? Tolkien's hyphen again!

Riv Res · Post by **Riv Res** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:10 pm

Iolanthe wrote:Riv, how about water-lilies (Tom Bombadil and Goldberry)? Tolkien's hyphen again!

YES!! A good one!

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:01 pm

From "Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit:"
Primeroles
Anemones
Asphodel
Lily-flowers
Rose-brambles
Iris-swords
Water-lilies
Eglantine
Clematis

From "The Window on the West:" Only the flower-words Sam uses to describe Galadriel -- daffadowndilly and daisies

From "The Forbidden Pool:" None

From "Journey to the Cross-Roads:"
Celandine
Anemones (white and blue)
Woodland hyacinths
Yellow stonecrop

Riv Res · Post by **Riv Res** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:04 pm

You ladies are awesome!

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:23 pm

I've just scanned through the chapters to the end of the Bombadil chapter. The only flowers mentioned are the red flowers of the bean plants and forget-me-nots. But there aren't real forget-me-nots, just the blue color, which is mentioned twice.

I love forget-me-nots! You've got to think the JRRT liked their name.