Discussing The Hobbit

[Lindariel]

I've also felt that the only reason that Gimli joined the fellowship was because Legolas joined it, and as he said (in the movie, sorry, I'm not as good as quoting from the book as yet, working on it though) "I'd rather be dead than see the Ring in the hands of an elf! Never trust an elf!"

Lyanness, in the book there is no scene of Legolas and Gimli volunteering to join the Fellowship -- that was PJ & Co's invention, including that disastrous Gimli quote and the decision to blow the bickering between Legolas and Gimli WAY out of proportion (along with the tension between Aragorn and Boromir); there was relatively little of that in the book outside of a brief exchange of two lines before the Gate of Moria, another two lines at the stream of Nimrodel, the blindfolding scene in Lothlorien (although Gimli's quarrel was really more with Haldir than Legolas), and the friendly body-count competition at Helm's Deep.

In the book, Elrond chooses Legolas and Gimli for the Fellowship himself. In "The Ring Goes South," Elrond gathers the hobbits together and informs them:

The Company of the Ring shall be Nine; and the Nine Walkers shall be set against the Nine Riders that are evil. With you and your faithful servant, Gandalf will go; for this shall be his great task, and maybe the end of his labours.

For the rest, they shall represent the other Free Peoples of the World: Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Legolas shall be for the Elves; and Gimli son of Gloin for the Dwarves. They are willing to go at least to the passes of the Mountains, and maybe beyond.

I've never seen Gimli or any of the Dwarves as feeling that they have any need to prove their worth -- to them it is self-evident. What we see more of is the bitterness and misunderstanding between Elves and Dwarves over two MAJOR incidents in the distant past -- (1) the disastrous falling out between Thingol and the Dwarves of Nogrod over the Nauglamir (the necklace crafted by the Dwarves to hold the Silmaril that Beren and Luthien took from Morgoth) that resulted in the slaying of Thingol and later on the massacre of those Dwarves. (2) The awakening of the Balrog of Moria by the Dwarves of Khazad-dum as they mined for mithril.

[lyanness]

As quoted from Iolanthe:[The Dwarves] live long... aforetime the Noldor held that dying they returned unto the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say Aule cares for them and gathers them in Mandos in halls set apart for them, and there they wait, not in idleness but in the practice of crafts and the learnings of yet deeper lore. And Aule, they say, declared to their Fathers of old that Iluvatar ...will... give them a place among the Children in the end. Then their part shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the re-making of Arda after the Last Battle. - HME XI. 204

Thats the scary thing. No one knows for sure, not the Noldor, not the Dwarves, no-one. Not even we know where we are going after death. I believe that there is a heaven and that I'm going there, but I dont know for sure. Sometimes it just scares me to death. At least the dwarves had faith, strong faith that they were not mere mistakes, that Eru did love and cherish them like His children, but did they really and truely know that? Did the Illuvatar ever tell them that directly? Anyone else telling them could be considered heresay (my opinion).

Just a thought

[lyanness]

So, Lindariel, are you saying that Eru knew from the beginning that Aule would make the dwarves and counted on that in order to implement his original plan? If so, it was a bit unfair of him to chastise Aule for doing it.

I agree with you, Merry, It was unfair for the Illuvatar to discipline Aule, however, if the Illuvatar had not done so, the chain of command, as it were, would have been weakened. I think that the other beings - especially Melkor - would have had less respect and reverence for Eru and the complete episode of the creation would have been more of a chaotic episode. Eru had to 'put his foot down' and declare that he had autonomy regarding the creation of living beings. Imagine Melkor getting Carte Blanche in creating his own minions of little Melkors? Illuvatar save Middle Earth.

Thus, I do pity Aule, but I completely understand why Eru did what he deemed he should do, being a manager myself. A tight ship needed to be run, and the captain needs to establish management position for the purposes of peace and order.

[lyanness]

Thanks for the assistance above, Lindariel. As I said, I'm a pro at the movies - my first contact with Tolkien's works - but sadly not so good at the book work. I am working on it, though.

[Merry]

Marbretherese has written our last entry in the Hobbit Calendar, with some fine summing up, so make sure you take a look!

There has been and will be some bashing of The Hobbit going on, some of it available online. When the movie(s) come out, people will blame it for not being LOTR. But I think we've found that the story has virtues of its own. I've never said this out loud before, but I think Bilbo is a much better character than Frodo: not necessarily a better person, but more real as a character. Agree or disagree? Any other strengths of The Hobbit?

[marbretherese]

thanks, Merry, I'd completely forgotten about the Hobbit Calendar even though I did write the last entry

I see what you mean about Bilbo and Frodo. Perhaps we find it easier in a way to identify with Bilbo because he has so many human traits. He's grumpy and wants his "guests" to be gone. He's stuck in a cosy rut (or hole) and doesn't want to come out of it. Faced with all the challenges of his journey his character develops and he discovers hidden depths and resourcefulness.

In many ways we don't get to know Frodo so well. He doesn't seem to have any negative traits we can identify with - a lot of the colour in the early chapters of LoTR comes from Sam, Merry and Pippin, but Frodo is painted as "different" from the start. We learn a bit about him through the eyes of the others but he's almost a symbolic figure, setting out unquestioningly on his journey and shouldering the burden of the ring without complaint. He demonstrates compassion and courage but does not seem to undergo character development in the same way that Bilbo - or even Pippin - does.

[Merry]

Yes, a symbolic character--that's a good way to put it. I remember reading some secondary source--can't remember who!--who said that it's almost as if Tolkien felt that telling the story of Frodo's suffering on the way to Mount Doom from his point of view would be indecent and so it was told from Sam's point of view. I think I agree--I'm not sure I want to know that kind of suffering. But the result is that Frodo, as a character, becomes a little distant in a way that Bilbo never did.

[Iolanthe]

I remember reading that too.

You've both given a good summation of why it's harder to engage with Frodo. In a way Sam is the 'Bilbo' of The Lord of the Rings. We watch him grow and face challenges even greater than Bilbo's and we can identify with him. But Frodo is taking a journey that's impossible to share. The Ring is eating away at him and his struggle is just to be able to hold on to himself. It's not the typical journey of growing and finding yourself. His journey is about loss. Once he and Sam leave the Fellowship and cross the Anduin Frodo starts to almost fade.

[Lindariel]

Have you ever wondered what it might have been lilke to be in Bilbo's shoes during the time the dwarves were the "guests" of the Elvenking, and Bilbo had to spend his time lurking and sneaking about, stealing food, trying to find all of the dwarves, and dealing with their various needs, demands, notions about how to escape, etc.? Well, over at Henneth Annun, fanfiction author Thundera Tiger has written a very entertaining story presenting her version of Bilbo's adventures in the Halls of the Elvenking. She has managed to capture Bilbo beautifully, as well as the voices of the various dwarves and their idiosyncracies. Here's a link:

http://www.henneth-annun.net/stories/ch ... pordinal=1

Enjoy!

[marbretherese]

thanks, Lindariel! I enjoyed reading that. It's always good when fan fiction keeps faith with the original vision of the author, and I think that Thundera Tiger has done that really well!

[Iolanthe]

Thanks for the link, Lindariel! I've bookmarked it to read when I have a little more time tomorrow . Great subject to build a story around!

[shieldmaiden]

I'm just in the process of rereading The Hobbit for the first time in about 20 years!

I must confess, I'm half way through it and this reading has only reaffirmed my belief that it isn't my favourite of Tolkien's works.

I'm finding it only mildly entertaining, I'm afraid. I can't for the life of me understand how it will be possible to make two films out of the book. Where will they "break" it apart? Any ideas of how, or where, this will be done?

[marbretherese]

Shieldmaiden, I never thought that much of The Hobbit until we put together The Hobbit Calendar a couple of years ago. We took turns at writing entries, and (as with a lot of Tolkien's works) I discovered that the more closely I looked, the more interesting it became.

You'll find more info on the films at the MEJ Hobbit Movie Discussion and Speculation thread here. The situation does seem to keep changing - I must admit I've not paid a lot of attention recently so I can't comment on what the latest plans are!

[Iolanthe]

They are pretty gloomy!

I also recommend our Hobbit Calendar. It was a revelation to all of us to track Bilbo's journey and see how it changed him. Although superficially a children's book, there are all of Tolkien's subtlety and layers lurking there. I think, as you get past the first half of The Hobbit, you'll see all this emerging. Like LotT, it changes its character as you go along as more comes into play. I imagine that the films will try to bring the depth of the last half of the book into the first half, without (I hope) losing all the innocence and charm. If they ever make it, that is!!!!

[Merry]

I agree with you, to a certain extent, shieldmaiden: if The Hobbit were the best book Tolkien had written, we wouldn't be here today, right? The Lord of the Rings is THE BOOK! It not only overshadows The Hobbit, but also nearly every other book ever written!

That doesn't mean I don't occasionally read other books and enjoy them.