The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

A chapter by chapter as well as general discussion of Tolkien's masterpiece
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Lindariel
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Post by Lindariel »

Merry wrote: Celeborn and Galadriel sort of have a mixed marriage, don't they? Coming from different lineages of elves, their experiences of Middle-earth are different in some ways. And those who accuse Tolkien of being a misogynist overlook the fact that it was Galadriel who was more powerful of the couple. Perhaps this would have been true even if she hadn't had the Ring.

It's also possible that Elves experience things like love and marriage somewhat differently than humans do. Tolkien suggests in one place, as I recall, that elves have sex only when they intend to reproduce--the subject of a lot of internet discussion! So maybe, since Galadriel and Celeborn had reproduced as they saw fit, it wasn't a huge big deal for them to be apart. Frankly, I always imagined that Celeborn sort of looked forward to a chance to be in charge, to wear the pants in the family, so to speak!

This is, of course, pure idle speculation. :D
Merry, I think I somewhat disagree with you here and with others that have chosen to depict Celeborn as being "less powerful" or "ceding authority" to Galadriel. As a Sindarin Lord and close kinsman to both Elu Thingol of Doriath and Thranduil of the Greenwood, Celeborn would be an extraordinarily powerful figure among the Sindarin and Silvan elves, and FAR more influential with them than Galadriel, who as a Noldorin exile would probably have been regarded initially with suspicion. That she became beloved of the elves of Lothlorien, who were primarily Silvan and some Sindar, was no doubt due to her marriage to Celeborn and to her good will and diplomatic behavior that set her apart from Feanor and his sons. It also went to her favor that she had no part in the Kin Slayings at Alqualonde, Doriath, and Sirion.

Yes, she bears an Elven Ring, and this gives her significant magical power -- but politically, she is an "outsider" who has gained acceptance among the Silvan and Sindarin elves because of her marriage to Celeborn, her friendship with Thingol and Melian, and her good behavior when compared to the Feanorians. Her magical power and foresight are certainly respected among the people of Lothlorien, and she has become beloved as their "Lady of Light." But Celeborn is always referred to and deferred to with tremendous respect and is hailed as the Lord of Lorien. There is no doubt in my mind that Celeborn is the primary authority, especially in matters related to governance and military and political matters. Galadriel is respected for her wisdom, power, and foresight, and Celeborn certainly avails himself of her counsel, but I do believe the Galadhrim look to Celeborn for any final decisions.

If you read the Lothlorien passages in FOTR carefully, you will see that Celeborn's authority is not at all deferred to Galadriel. Celeborn greets the party; Galadriel remains silent. When she speaks, it is to convey what she has learned by reading the hearts of the Fellowship, her knowledge that Gandalf set out with the party but never entered the Golden Wood, and to serve as diplomat between Celeborn and Gimli. She also speaks as the wife and chatelaine to the Lord of the Golden Wood, greeting, comforting, and providing for his guests. The gifts she gives to the Fellowship are openly attributed to the largesse and good will of her husband -- "The Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings. He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted." Celeborn asks the questions, demands answers, and concludes the meeting. He is clearly the one in charge.

The night before the Fellowship departs, Celeborn advises them on how to proceed with the next leg of their journey and gives them boats and provisions -- for which "Aragorn thanked Celeborn many times." The next morning, they receive their Lothlorien cloaks, woven by Galadriel and her ladies, but provided, once again, through the largesse of the Lord of Lorien. Then finally, at the final parting feast upon Egladil, Celeborn gives them detailed information about the lands they will be passing through and the latest intelligence from his scouts. Then Galadriel, as Lady and chatelaine, presents the parting cup and gives the final gifts from "the Lord and Lady of the Galadhrim." Once again, Galadriel has had a hand in the creation and selection of these gifts -- particularly the gifts for Sam and Frodo -- but the gifts themselves come from the largesse of the Lord of the Golden Wood.

As far as why Celeborn remains in Middle-earth when Galadriel sails, again I firmly believe that he remains primarily as the sole remaining elder kinsman for Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen. As Ringbearers, Galadriel and Elrond MUST sail to preserve their own wellbeing. I have seen stories and essays that assume some sort of "falling-out" between Galadriel and Celeborn, but there is nothing whatsoever to support that opinion. In fact, Celeborn's final words to Aragorn are, "Kinsman, farewell! May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you to the end!" Clearly, Celeborn is distressed to be parted from his wife, but there is no other choice if she is to be healed and they are not to utterly abandon their grandchildren.

My opinion is that Celeborn does indeed eventually sail after the death of Arwen and after Elladan and Elrohir have made their final choices. However, The Professor chose to leave the ultimate fate of Celeborn, Elladan, Elrohir, and Thranduil a mystery, and hence, the province of LOTS of fan fiction!
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“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
Merry
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Post by Merry »

Lindariel, I'm afraid I was mostly joking: the idea of Galadriel 'wearing the pants' in the marriage is one that I found funny! I thought I had conveyed that. :D

In all seriousness, though, we cannot simply overlook that the Ring certainly gave more power to Galadriel.
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
Lindariel
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Post by Lindariel »

Oh, I agree that Nenya did indeed give Galadriel a great deal more MAGICAL power, and she is most certainly a force to be reckoned with. After all, it is Galadriel who "threw down its [Dol Guldur's] walls and laid bare its pits." However, Celeborn is the one with the political/military power. It is her alliance/marriage with him that makes it possible for her to also have a measure of political power based on the good will she has built up over time with his people.

I think in many ways Tolkien sets up Galadriel as a foil to the Feanorians. Like them, she is Noldor and an Exile. But whereas Feanor and his sons and their wild Oath rampage across Middle-earth on a single-minded, ill-conceived vendetta against Morgoth for the sole purpose of retrieving The Silmarils, basically trampling over anyone -- good or evil -- that might be in their way, Galadriel makes friendships, forges alliances, learns and adopts local customs, and most importantly, falls genuinely in love with and marries the powerful Sindarin Prince Celeborn and makes his people, her people. She works for the good of ALL, not just for her own self-interest.
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“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
Merry
Varda
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Post by Merry »

I've been following the Great Years Calendar with interest as we approach March 25. Remember, by the way, that March 25 is International Tolkien Reading Day--what will you read?

Today is kind of the calm before the storm, but the pathos of the events of this day have touched me once again.
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
Lindariel
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Post by Lindariel »

Since I'm constantly dipping back into The Professor's books, EVERY DAY feels like Tolkien Reading Day to me. However, I think I will choose "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" this year for the official day.
Then a great beauty was revealed in him, so that all who after came there looked on him in wonder; for they saw that the grace of his youth, and the valour of his manhood, and the wisdom and majesty of his age were blended together. And long there he lay, an image of the splendour of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world.
Sigh . . .
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“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
Iolanthe
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Post by Iolanthe »

I'm thinking I might mark it by reading something from The Hobbit, probably Bilbo's encounter with Smaug :D .
Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
Merry
Varda
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Post by Merry »

My youngest nephew (okay, he's 16 now, but still the youngest!) and I read the first chapter of The Hobbit again, as we have done several times before. Fun!
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
Lindariel
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Post by Lindariel »

Ah, Merry, we are NEVER too old to be read to! My husband is a prime example. I spot him standing quietly outside the door almost any time I read to our now 9-year-old. He claims it's because he likes the image of me cuddled up and reading with our youngest, but I know better! He wants to hear the story too!
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“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
Merry
Varda
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Re: The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

Post by Merry »

Happy Coronation Day! I was thinking today of all the many themes that Tolkien has mastered in LOTR. One of them that I haven't thought a lot about before is the calendar: it's perfect that the coronation should occur on May 1! He pays attention to seasons, equinoxes, church feast days and just our experience of the passing of time. Midsummer's Day for the wedding is another example of perfect timing.
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
Philipa
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Re: The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

Post by Philipa »

I agree Merry I also had thought about Baltane and the crowning of Elessar today. They go hand in hand. :D
Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!
MICHKA
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Re: The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

Post by MICHKA »

Quel beau jour que celui du couronnement et des retrouvailles d'Arwen et Aragorn, dans le film ,car il n'y est pas dans le livre ce jour-là;; peu importe c'est un magnifique 1er mai, et je ne me lasse pas d'entendre Viggo chanter les paroles de son ancêtre , de voir tout le monde heureux, enfin!!!
Tout ce que nous avons à décider c'est ce que nous devons faire du temps qui nous est imparti
Merry
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Re: The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

Post by Merry »

I have to say that it is fun reading your posts in French, Michka!

I have mixed feelings about that scene in the movie. Maybe the kind of mythic quality of how the coronation and Arwen's arrival were described in the book make them unfilmable, but I think everyone was just tired.
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
MICHKA
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Re: The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

Post by MICHKA »

Vous avez raison mais il me semble que cette scène a été refaite dans les retours en N.Zeland, justement parce que personne n'en était content, la fatigue bien sûr; c'est expliqué dans les extras, les merveilleux bonus des versions longues; les revoir me procure toujours un vif plaisir et mon sentiment grandit encore pour notre vaillant ''Aragorn''!!
Tout ce que nous avons à décider c'est ce que nous devons faire du temps qui nous est imparti
Riv Res
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Re: The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

Post by Riv Res »

At the risk of giving away one of the trivia questions over at V-W :wink: , I have had this rattling around in my brain since re-watching the extended DVD extras of LOTR for that contest. Shippey appears quite often in the extras when they discuss Tolkien and the part that really caught my attention was where he labeled the group of British fantasy writers of which Tolkien was part, the traumatized authors. C.S.Lewis was also part of the group of former military men (like Tolkien) who were part of the carnage and horror of trench fighting in WWI. Shippey purports that, as writers, these men turned to fantasy not only to escape the horrors they witnessed, but it seemed the only place for them to create a fictitious world where there was some honor and integrity to combat the evil ... where goodness and compassion would prevail. To be honest, I had not thought of the historical precedence that was the foundation of LOTR in quite that way. Oh ... to be sure ... I have read all about how WWI influenced Tolkien's writing, but I focused on the strategies and battles and plotting and overriding evil, with little thought on how the experience drove these writers to fantasy fiction. I also wonder how much this may be true for other fantasy writers of other generations and experiences.
Merry
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Re: The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

Post by Merry »

I think it was Garth's book, more than any other, that brought that point home to me, RR. I have always been unhappy with the word 'fantasy' when used to describe LOTR--even though the Professor uses it himself! But I have become more comfortable thinking about it as a mythologized account of his war experience. That seems to give it the gravitas that it deserves.

It's interesting to think of our author as 'traumatized'. That word has a highly emotional connotation, I think, and we talked here before about whether or not Tolkien suffered from depression or PTSD. While I don't think the evidence supports claiming that he had these in their clinical definitions, since he always seemed to function at a high level, certainly having survived the Somme had to have taken its toll. I guess one could say that he survived a trauma. Perhaps the work of 'mythologizing' his experience had a kind of cathartic effect. I wonder if that was the case with the other WWI writers.
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
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