The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

[MICHKA]

C'est un travail extraordinaire, une oeuvre grandiose à la gloire de la Terre du Milieu, et de Tolkien. Ce ''Seigneur des anneaux'' a déjà créé bien des vocations d'artistes de tous genres, et c'est un vrai plaisir de voir tout çà; merci, Merry

[Merry]

Hi, all--

I've been invited to give a four-lecture series at a local church in October on themes and influences in The Lord of the Rings. I'm so excited--I love meeting fellow Tolkien fans and talking about our Professor! I've made a list of ten themes/influences I'd like to talk about, but I wonder how you all might structure a series like this. What are the main themes/influences on the Trilogy?

[MICHKA]

bonjour, Merry; je pencherais pour la'' tolérance'' entre les peuples différents, la fraternité dans la lutte contre le mal, la confiance absolue dans l'amitié réelle et sincère; est-ce que cela répond à la question?

[Merry]

Yes, that's exactly the kind of response I'm looking for, Michka--thanks! Any more?

[marbretherese]

How about: everyone, no matter how humble, having their role to play ~ continuing the fight against evil even when all seems lost ~ the inevitability of death and the promise of the realms beyond the visible world?

[Lindariel]

Merry, I, of course, am very attracted to the theme of Music throughout Tolkien's works -- the idea of life being the gradual unfolding of the Song of the Ainur. I know this hearkens back to the Silmarillion, but music is woven throughout LOTR, and it has genuine power.

[Merry]

Yes, thanks, marbretherese and Lindariel. Those are good ones! I had hoped to keep the list to ten, but I can see that that might be difficult. Any more?

[Lindariel]

Merry, I have recently received a copy of the wonderful book The Philosophy of Tolkien: The Worldview Behind The Lord of the Rings, by Peter Kreeft. The Table of Contents reads like a terrific lecture series covering all of the big questions in LOTR. If you haven't seen this book, you might want to get a copy of it. As you might imagine, I'm especially looking forward to Chapter 9, particularly section 9.5!

Here's the Table of Contents:

Introduction

1 Metaphysics
1.1 How big is reality?
1.2 Is the supernatural real?
1.3 Are Platonic Ideas real?

2 Philosophical Theology
2.1 Does God exist?
2.2 Is life subject to divine providence?
2.3 Are we both fated and free?
2.4 Can we relate to God by "religion"?

3 Angelology
3.1 Are angels real?
3.2 Do we have guardian angels?
3.3 Could there be creatures between men and angels, such as Elves?

4 Cosmology
4.1 Is nature really beautiful?
4.2 Do things have personalities?
4.3 Is there real magic?

5 Anthropology
5.1 Is death good or bad?
5.2 Is romance more thrilling than sex?
5.3 Why do humans have identity crises?
5.4 What do we most deeply desire?

6 Epistemology
6.1 Is knowledge always good?
6.2 Is intuition a form of knowledge?
6.3 Is faith (trust) wisdom or ignorance?
6.4 What is truth?

7 Philosophy of History
7.1 Is history a story?
7.2 Is the past (tradition) a prison or a lighthouse?
7.3 Is history predictable?
7.4 Is there devolution as well as evolution?
7.5 Is human life a tragedy or a comedy?

8 Aethetics
8.1 why do we no longer love glory or splendor?
8.2 Is beauty always good?

9 Philosophy of Language
9.1 How can words be alive?
9.2 The metaphysics of words: Can words have real power?
9.3 Are there right and wrong words?
9.4 Is there an original, universal, natural language?
9.5 Why is music so powerful?

10 Political Philosophy
10.1 Is small beautiful?
10.2 Can war be noble?

11 Ethics: The War of Good and Evil
11.1 Is evil real?
11.2 How powerful is evil?
11.3 How weak is evil?
11.4 How does evil work?

12 Ethics: The "Hard" Virtues
12.1 Do principles or consequences make an act good?
12.2 Why must we be heroes?
12.3 Can one go on without hope?
12.4 Is authority oppressive and obedience demeaning?
12.5 Are promises sacred?

13 Ethics: The "Soft" Virtues
13.1 What is the power of friendship?
13.2 Is humility humiliating?
13.3 What should you give away?
13.4 Does mercy trump justice?
13.5 Is charity a waste?

Conclusion -- Can any one man incarnate every truth and virtue?

[Merry]

I do have this book, Lindariel--but thanks for all the typing! I'm a big admirer of Peter Kreeft and his works, many of which I have. I understand that he's a terrific teacher in person, as well.

You'll have to tell us what you think of the book and its arguments, Lindariel. I have to say that, as much as I've argued here and elsewhere that Tolkien's Catholic faith was one of the primary influences on his work, I think that Professor K. takes that and, in general, the idea that JRRT was writing to support a conservative worldview, a tad too far. So many people want to oversimplify Tolkien by saying that LOTR is about THIS or THAT, when it seems to me that it is about THIS AND THAT and a lot more besides!

[MICHKA]

Il y a tant à observer et développer dans tous les thèmes abordés dans ce livre,et je vois que c'est exactement l'étude du Prof. Peter Kreeft, dont je crois que je serai une prochaine lectrice, certainement, pour élargir mon horizon' tolkienien'!
Merci à Marbretherese de son intiative et vos grandes connaissances. J'ai encore beaucoup à apprendre....

[MICHKA]

je reviens pour faire savoir qu'un article de ''Empire''(source) d'octobre 2003 donne une entrevue avec Viggo Mortensen:''Interview de Mortensen-Aragorn''; presque tout est dit dans les réponses de Viggo sur le sujet.Il n'y a plus qu'à prendre une ligne à la fois pour analyser et approfondir sa theorie, en faire un thème à discussion,( c'est mon humble avis, une idée pas trop naïve?

[Merry]

Not naive at all, Michka! I just took a look at that interview (easily done due to the diligence of our friends at Viggo-Works!) and I think Viggo mentions some of the things we have talked about here. His reading of Tolkien is informed by a knowledge of northern European literature (e.g. the reference to Beowulf) and that's something I think I'll need to talk about.

I have to disagree with Viggo at the end, though--I think it DOES matter a lot whether or not the Ring is destroyed, don't you? I agree that there would be some small satisfaction for the Fellowship if they had done all that they could and Sauron won anyway, but they would be dead or slaves with only a small bit of personal pride. The eucatastrophe element in Tolkien is pretty important, IMO. I might have to mention that, too.

[Lindariel]

Merry, I definitely agree with you about the importance of the desctruction of the Ring and the Eucatastrophe in LOTR. For me, a major, MAJOR theme -- one that differs from virtually EVERY OTHER great hero/epic tale out there -- is that The Fellowship is not on a quest to FIND something of great power or wealth, but to DESTROY something of great power that is also completely Evil. Shippey comes back to this point time and again -- how many of us, in this day and age, would be capable of DESTROYING or UNMAKING something of great power? So often it seems to me that we rush forward towards the next great scientific discovery or implementing the next big breakthrough without asking whether it would be a good idea or not? In the book and film Jurassic Park, Dr. Ian Malcolm points out that the folks who created the dinosaur theme park did so by standing on the shoulders of others who had made great discoveries and then turned around and used them, patented them, marketed them, and put them on a lunchbox with the sole thought of profit -- "You did it because you COULD, not because you SHOULD." It also brings us back to the line PJ gives to Frodo when he is confronted by Aragorn on Amon Hen -- "Would YOU destroy It?"

Would he? Would we?

[Merry]

Well said, Lindariel, and so applicable to many ethical issues today. I'd like to say that I would help to destroy the Ring, but I've never been faced with a future dominated by a Sauron! I do find myself reflecting, though, on my use of power in my role as a teacher in the classroom. What is legitimately mine to control and what is not? I find things go better when I'm clear on that and when I can let go of as much power as I can without chaos ensuing!

[MICHKA]

En ce qui concerne Boewulf il y a une quête du pouvoir qu'on ne voit pas chez les héros(la compagnie des 9)de LSDA;ils savent qu'ils partent pour la destruction de l'anneau,et sans espoir de récompense, ce qui fait la beauté de la démarche:''même si cela leur coûtera la vie''. Tolkien nous démontre les faiblesses de chacun,et la contre-partie à ces défauts quand tous présentent le courage d'en venir à bout. Mais ce sont des êtres humains, bien que l'histoire soit jonchée de magie; une magie acceptable, qui ne dérange pas, qui n'empêche pas la réalité,la véracité des sentiments et les réactions des gens face à la peur, au danger.En lisant tous les propos à ce sujet , peu à peu, je m'aperçois que beaucoup a déjà été discuté; j'espère ne pas répéter des évidences en participant:il faut m'excuser,ceci est récent pour moi et me passionne(!)