The Hobbit - The Movie: Speculation and Discussion

[Merry]

Nice to see you here, Riv Res! And thanks for your thoughts, too, Lindariel and Michka.

I agree that by the time of LOTR, Thranduil has left his isolationist tendancies behind. But during the time of the Hobbit, at least until the very end, his only concern seems to be the welfare of his little group of elves. This is more strong in the movie than in the book, I think. And I understand the reasons he feels this way; I think you're right about that, Lindariel. But that doesn't make those feelings or the actions that flow from them wise or right. Ignoring big problems or hoping sleeping dragons never wake does not cause those wishes to come true. Even if Smaug had not awakened because of the Dwarves, he might have awakened at any time. And even if that didn't happen, clearly the Necromancer was already at work: in the movies, anyway, it is assumed that the movement of the trolls, the wargs, the spiders, and the orcs was unusual and Gandalf is sure that this is a plot of the Necromancer. When the Dwarves decide to camp at a burnt-out homestead in the first movie, Gandalf again tries to connect even that small thing to an overall pattern of violence that was emerging even to the doorstep of Rivendell. Even if Thranduil didn't know that these things were happening, shouldn't he have? Mirkwood is his realm!

RR, I like the comparison between Aragorn's shame over his ancestry and Bard's. All of that went by so quickly in the movie, which I've seen only once, but the futile shooting of those giant arrows was frustrating. Have to admit, though, that the anticipation of Bard firing the last arrow from that silly contraption isn't moving me too much. I'd much rather see him with a regular bow and arrow--much more heroic a figure!

I'll have to read that essay about the meeting in Bree again to see how aware Gandalf was of the big picture at that time. More later . . .

[Riv Res]

Great points taken, Merry. May I HIGHLY recommend seeing this movie more than once? There is just WAY too much going on to catch it all ... much less all of the nuances that I am sure PJ intended.

[Lindariel]

Riv and Merry, in the LOTR Appendix A, Tolkien does indeed mention Gandalf's concern that Sauron might make use of Smaug and was trying to figure out how to deal with the dragon when he accidentally ran into Thorin in Bree. Here's the quote:

Among many cares he [Gandalf] was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use to terrible effect. How then could the end of Smaug be achieved? It was even as Gandalf sat and pondered this that Thorin stood before him . . .

When Gandalf recounts this story later to Frodo and Gimli in Minas Tirith, he says:

"Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here only to ruin and ash. But that has been averted -- because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree. A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle-earth."

[Merry]

I have always loved that poignant line: "There might be no Queen in Gondor." Thanks, Lindariel, for that quote: it does mean that Gandalf had seen the big picture before Thorin 'coincidentally' shows up. (And we know that Tolkien means some mysterious intervention by the Valar when he writes like that!)

I'm not sure I'm going to see DoS again, especially in the theater, RR. I'm pretty disappointed in it and don't want to encourage PJ in that direction again with my $10! I imagine, though, that if the price of the EE gets low enough, my resolve will weaken.

[Riv Res]

Go to a matinee. It's only $5.

[Riv Res]

Let's See What Tolkien Really Wrote ... As Opposed To PJ's Deviations ...

From the good people who do Tolkien research at Tolkien Gateway ...

The White Councils

Second Age

A "White Council" first met in c. S.A. 1701.[note 1] At this meeting it was decided that Imladris should become the stronghold of the Elves in Eriador, rather in Eregion.[5] No members are mentioned explicitly, but it is implied that at least Gil-galad and Elrond were members because Gil-galad gave Vilya to Elrond 'At that time also'.[5] It seems likely that the "White Council" of the Third Age echoed this "White Council" of the Second Age.[6]

Third Age

At the first meeting in T.A. 2463,[3] it was mooted that Gandalf be the head of the Council, but to Galadriel's dismay he refused the office. Saruman was chosen as their chief instead and he begrudged Gandalf for being the desired candidate.[1]

At the second meeting in T.A. 2851,[3] the Council met at Rivendell.[7] Gandalf urged an attack on Dol Guldur following his discovery in the previous year that its master was indeed Sauron.[3] Saruman overruled him because in secret he had begun to desire the One Ring for himself.[3] Unusually for a White Council meeting, Gandalf sat apart from the others, in silence and smoking, whilst Saruman spoke against the attack on Dol Guldur.[7] This irritated Saruman and he spoke to Gandalf afterwards, asking him why he did not join in the discussion, and mocked his smoking.[7] Gandalf replied, saying that pipe weed gave him 'patience' and mentioned that it was a practice of the Halflings.[7] Saruman mocked him again.[7] In response Gandalf did not speak, but sent out many rings of smoke into the air and grasped them in his hand before they vanished.[7] Saruman read this gesture as suggesting that Gandalf suspected him of wanting to possess the One Ring, or that there was a connection between the rings of power and the Halflings.[7]

At the third meeting in T.A. 2941,[3] they agreed to attack Dol Guldur. Saruman finally submitted for he knew that Sauron was searching for the One Ring in the Anduin.[3] The White Council launched an attack on Dol Guldur, but Sauron, having already made plans, fled to Mordor.[3]

At the fourth and final meeting in T.A. 2953, following Sauron's open declaration in 2951,[3] there was a discussion on the rings of power. Saruman claimed to have knowledge that the One Ring had been lost down the Anduin and into the sea.[3]

Smaug

Smaug (birth unknown – Third Age 2941) was the greatest fire-breathing dragon of the Third Age. Details of his origin are unknown, but in T.A. 2770 he attacked the Lonely Mountain and the town of Dale. He claimed the treasure of the mountain for himself and forced Thrór, King under the Mountain, and his people into exile. Thorin's quest - with the help of his burglar Bilbo Baggins - to reclaim the treasure ended in success when Smaug was slain by Bard in T.A. 2941.[3][1][2][6]

In T.A. 2850, Gandalf, whilst spying on the Necromancer in Dol Guldur, found a Dwarf imprisoned; near death, the dwarf gave Gandalf a key and a map. Unbeknownst to Gandalf at the time this dwarf was Thráin, King of Durin's Folk, who had been captured by the Necromancer in T.A. 2845. Having discovered that the Necromancer was indeed Sauron, Gandalf was very concerned that Sauron could use Smaug to a devastating effect. It is for this reason that Gandalf sought a plan to neutralise the threat of Smaug and limit the potential power of Sauron in the north of Middle-earth.[9]

By chance on 15 March 2941, Gandalf met Thorin Oakenshield in Bree (although another source states that they met when Thorin overtook but started to talk to Gandalf on the road[9]). They discussed their desire to destroy Smaug and retake the Lonely Mountain; they later met in Thorin's Halls in the Blue Mountains to develop a plan. Gandalf wanted Thorin to take the hobbit Bilbo Baggins as a burglar on their adventure to retake Erebor; this took considerable persuasion.[2][1]

Later in T.A. 2941, at the home of Bilbo Baggins, Gandalf presented Thorin with the map and key, and accompanied them on part of their quest.[6] The party reached the mountain later that year on Durin's Day.[8] They sent Bilbo in through the secret door to carry out his duty as their burglar; as Smaug lay dreaming of greed and violence, Bilbo stole a heavy two-handed cup from the dragon's vast hoard of treasure (which he used as a bed) and went back to the dwarves.

It looks like they agree with you , Merry, about Gandalf's motives with Smaug.

What say you?

[Merry]

Kind of a weird story about Gandalf and smoke rings!

It's interesting that Gandalf is worried about an alliance between Smaug and Sauron, since there's no evidence that they knew each other or had any interests in common. But a theme that we see through Tolkien is that evil attracts evil, so maybe Gandalf thinks this is inevitable. One thing that the Battle of the Five Armies accomplishes is that orc colonies all around were disrupted for a while. I'm reading LOTR again and Gandalf still has hopes that Moria is empty of orcs due to the B5A. But at least some of the orcs they find in Moria are from Mordor. I had forgotten that, in the book, Frodo is speared by an orc chieftain, not by the cave troll!

[Lindariel]

Gandalf's supposition that Sauron would make use of Smaug once the evil wizard was powerful enough to engage the dragon is not so far fetched. Morgoth made great use of dragons in the devastating wars of the First Age, and as Morgoth's lieutenant Sauron would have taken note of this. At the time of The Hobbit, I believe Smaug was the last of the fire-breathing dragons in Middle-earth and definitely an important weapon of evil to eliminate.

[Merry]

I agree! So, back to my original question: was poking the stick in the hornet's nest justified, even considering what the hornet did to Laketown?

[Riv Res]

I agree! So, back to my original question: was poking the stick in the hornet's nest justified, even considering what the hornet did to Laketown?

Although one could argue about their methods, going after Smaug (in any way) could undoubtedly be justified in my mind. I feel that Bilbo's uttering of "What have we done?!" was done solely based on the simplicity of the Dwarves re-claiming their homeland and NOT with knowledge of the big picture which included Sauron. The killing of Smaug and the attack on Dol Goldur is what drove Sauron south to Mordor. To his discredit, he then seemed to disregard the north, or maybe felt he had only forces enough to attack the south with the demise of Smaug. Anyway ... Gandalf's grand scheme of things seemed to work, if only barely.

My question is ... how could Sauron ever have lured Smaug away from the gold and treasure of Erebor? What was in it for him? Moria? Also, would he have allowed himself to be subjugated to Sauron? Would Sauron have had it any other way? Would there have eventually been a clash of Titans?

[Merry]

Would Smaug have been lured by the Ring and played a dangerous game with Sauron, as Saruman did? I don't know much about dragon psychology! But, as Gandalf pointed out to Saruman when the latter attempted to form an alliance, only one hand (or claw) can wear a Ring.

[Lindariel]

Smaug was going to wake up at some point, whether Bilbo and the Dwarves were there or not, and Laketown was always in danger. Indeed, great swaths of Middle-earth were in danger, because Smaug came down upon Erebor/Dale from the North -- so clearly once he woke, he could chose to pillage and burn over a tremendous area if he so wished. Smaug had to be eliminated somehow. Gandalf's dilemma was to try to figure out a way to accomplish this with as little collateral damage as possible. Open assault by any large force was certain to result in tremendous loss of life, both military and civilian. Plus, what ruler could he appeal to for an army to undertake the deed? What argument could he make to Turgon of Gondor or the elves of Rivendell or Lothlorien or Mirkwood? All of them were already bound up in their own concerns. Also, if we look to Tolkien canon and into mythology, dragons were usually defeated not by forces of men, but in single combat -- Glaurung by Turin, Ancalagon by Earendil, Fafnir by Siegfried, etc. Stealth was really the only way to go, and luck dropped Thorin in Gandalf's lap to provide at least a small force of willing fighters.

Riv, you ask interesting questions. I'm sure Sauron was already aware of the dragon -- Smaug's assault on Erebor and Dale would have been news throughout Middle-earth. I think it was a question of waiting until Sauron had amassed sufficient strength to deal with Smaug effectively. In fact, perhaps Sauron could NOT do so until he had recovered his Ring. With the Ring, I imagine Sauron would have had sufficient power to subjugate a dragon through force of will.

[Merry]

It's interesting that we don't really get to see much of what anyone can do with the Ring, do we? Sauron has the Ring at the Last Alliance and, although he is devastating there, much of that seems to be by force of arms and he is ultimately defeated even while wearing the Ring. Gollum, Bilbo, and Frodo never try to do much with the it. Although it is implied that this is somewhat because of their stature, Galadriel also tells Frodo that it is because he hasn't really tried. Frodo is also defeated by Gollum while wearing the Ring. So, yes, I imagine Sauron, with the Ring, could have bent Smaug to his will, but exactly how that would happen is left to our imaginations.

Over at TOR.n's discussion boards, some have been having the discussion of how the White Council is going to pull down Dol Guldur in the movies. In a way, this is the same discussion, since the elven rings will be there. Will Sauron be chased out through strength of will or will they 'get dirty', as they've been saying it at TOR.n? The skirmish between Sauron and Gandalf has sort of been Star Trek: force fields and photon torpedoes!

[Riv Res]

Over at TOR.n's discussion boards, some have been having the discussion of how the White Council is going to pull down Dol Guldur in the movies. In a way, this is the same discussion, since the elven rings will be there. Will Sauron be chased out through strength of will or will they 'get dirty', as they've been saying it at TOR.n? The skirmish between Sauron and Gandalf has sort of been Star Trek: force fields and photon torpedoes!

Hmmmm ... I wonder just how this will be handled, indeed. In the book, Gandalf and the White Council do no chasing, do they? Do they/he (Gandalf) chase Sauron off to Mordor, or does he simply retreat there to retrench and start his war in the south?

I also am very intrigued on just how PJ will get Gandalf out of his imprisonment at Dol Goldur. Gandalf must be present at Erebor for the Battle of the Five Armies, so his 'escape' must come sometime soon in the 3rd film. I just can't see him going nose to nose with Sauron.

Time will tell, I suppose.

[Merry]

I don't recall much from the books at all, only that Sauron didn't offer much resistance since it had been his plan to move to Mordor anyway.

Here are some relevant dates from the Third Age:

1050: "About this time a shadow falls on Greenwood, and men begin to call it Mirkwood."
c. 1300: "Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains and attack the Dwarves. The Nazgul reappear. The chief of these comes north to Angmar."
1409: The Witch-king invades Arnor.
1974: End of the North Kingdom.
1975: "The Witch-king defeated at the Battle of Fornost, and pursued to the Ettenmoors. He vanishes from the North."
1980: "The Witch-king comes to Mordor and there gathers the Nazgul. A Balrog appears in Moria, and slays Durin VI."
2063: Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur. Sauron retreats and hides in the East.
2460: "Sauron returns with increased strength to Dol Guldur."
2463: "The White Council is formed."
2770: Smaug arrives in Erebor and destroys Dale.
2850: Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur and ascertains that Sauron is there.
2931: Aragorn born. (Just for fun!)
2941: "Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wished to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur. The Battle of the Five Armies."
2954: "Mount Doom bursts into flame again."

Reading through the history of the Third Age, one can see the big picture and Sauron right in the middle of it. Just reading the books, it may seem that the movement of orcs, the Nazgul, and the Balrog, etc., are just random or orcs just being orcs. But it's clearer reading through that timeline that Sauron is playing a chess game long in the planning and that the White Council was very slow to act. Not only that, but Sauron retreats from Dol Guldur not once, but twice! One can see more, also, why Gandalf feared Smaug becoming another chess piece.