The Hobbit - The Movie: Speculation and Discussion

[Riv Res]

But was Thorin really mad?

Whoa!! Now THAT's a great question. Have to think about this one a bit.

[Philipa]

Well ... he just can't leave Gandalf hanging there in Dol Guldur. It will be interesting to see how he handles it to be sure.

God I hate that scene.

But was Thorin really mad?

While reading the book I always thought it more "greed" than madness. Lets face it, retrieving the stone was one of Thorin's goals and then the burglar goes and steals it. But the seeds of greed made Thorin's ability to see past other races willing to talk impossible.

[Lindariel]

I think there is a bit of precedent to say that Thorin had a specific form of madness called "the dragon sickness." In the chapter "The Clouds Burst," Tolkien has this to say about Thorin: "And already, so strong was the bewilderment of the treasure upon him [Thorin], he was pondering whether by the help of Dain he might not recapture the Arkenstone and withhold the share of the reward."

There is precedent in several Nordic/Northern European myths that dragons are the personification of greed. They kill for and hoard treasure, and their treasure can bring about "the dragon sickness" -- a form of mad greed for treasure -- in those exposed to the dragon hoard. In some legends -- most specifically the Nibelung Ring Cycle -- the giant Fafnir TURNS INTO a dragon because of his mad sickness -- his BEWILDERMENT -- over the Rhine gold and the magical Ring made from that gold.

I do think Tolkien is referring back to these Nordic/Northern European myths in his representation of Thorin's bewilderment/madness over the dragon hoard, and that PJ & Co. DO have a legitimate case for portraying Thorin as going mad over the treasure.

Here's an interesting question. If Thorin had succeeded in killing for and keeping the dragon treasure of Erebor, what would have happened to him? Would he, in his madness, have eventually turned upon his own friends and allies in order to have the treasure all to himself? Would Thorin, like Fafnir, have become a dragon?

In other words, did Thorin's valiant death in battle spare him from becoming a monster?

[MICHKA]

La possession de l'or , qui détermine une forme de pouvoir, a toujours ressemblé à une folie, voyez le combat acharné des espagnols pour s'emparer de l'or des incas, la ruée vers l'or des pionniers américains, les histoires de magie pour créer l'or, les chasses au trésor, les corsaires et pirates avides de cargaisons chargées d'or, les monuments ou oeuvres d'art couverts d'or, etc...Je crois que la fièvre de l'or a de tous temps rendu fou certains , aussi le roi précédent de Thorin lui a communiqué cette maladie, d'abord d'une façon détournée, légitime pour récupérer ce qui lui appartenait et qui fut dérobé, mais qui devient une idée fixe, une obsession, peut-on dire, très compréhensible dans ce cas. Je pense qu'on peut appeler cela une folie, jusqu'à un certain point, et s'il essaie de se racheter envers Bilbon à la fin ,cela ne change pas son état d'esprit: il reste accro à son trésor, au phénomène ''d'avoir'', posséder, reprendre.

[MICHKA]

Remarquez également cette folie de la possession qui est rapportée dans le film ''Monuments men'' , celle d'Hitler qui voulait le monde et toutes les oeuvres d'art, comme dans l'actualité avec le chef d'état déchu d'Ukraine et ses collections innombrables, ainsi que tous les étrangers très fortunés qui n'étanchent pas leur soif de possession en empilant tableaux , sculptures, objets de valeur pour leur propre vanité.Cela ne s'est jamais démenti au cours des siècles et de nos jours, comme il est chanté dans un opéra célèbre, parodiant les paroles de la bible,: ''Le veau d'or est toujours debout''

[Merry]

Very literate replies, Michka, as always!

I would like to explore the possibility that Thorin was not mad, but that his behavior was bad. Not all bad behavior is madness, despite what the psychologists would like us to believe! I do think that Thorin had a legitimate claim on Erebor and all its gold. It was not madness to think so. I also think that it was not madness to think they could defeat the dragon, because the dragon ended up defeated. Gandalf also thought it was possible. Where Thorin crossed the line was his failure to help his neighbors in dire need, although I also think his neighbors' quick willingness to come to violence over the treasure was also not morally admirable. What Thorin suffered from, then, was greed, a moral fault he acknowledged before his death. If he were mad, would he have been able to recover from it so quickly?

Just my two cents!

[Lindariel]

Merry, I would argue that Thorin and his people do NOT have the right to ALL of the treasure in Erebor. The dragon hoard also included the wealth Smaug pillaged from the City of Dale. For them to claim ALL ofthe treasure would mean cheating others of their rightful possessions. Bard points this out in his admittedly perhaps less that diplomatic initial pitch to Thorin:

"I am Bard, and by my hand was the dragon slain and your treasure delivered. Is that not a matter that concerns you? Moreover I am by right descent the heir of Girion of Dale, and in your hoard is mingled much of the wealth of his halls and towns, which of old Smaug stole. Is not that a matter of which we may speak?"

And to be completely fair to Bard and the Elvenking, they did not expect to find the Dwarves alive when they arrived at Erebor after the death of the dragon. They fully expected that Thorin and his company had already been killed before the dragon assaulted Laketown. I fail to see how this constitutes "willingness to come to violence over the treasure." They were caught by surprise and not prepared to be negotiating with a living Thorin. If Thorin had debated calmly and reasonably with them instead of immediately jumping on the defensive, it would have been a completely different situation.

But Thorin was too deep in the "bewilderment" of the treasure to be calm or rational. Call it a kind of temporary insanity, and it took the arrival of the Orc/Warg army to snap him out of it and make him finally see the bigger picture.

[Merry]

Good points, except I don't believe in 'temporary insanity'!

[Riv Res]

[Riv Res]

OK ... I do not hope to change the subject here but actually enhance our discussion of Merry's question ... "But was Thorin really mad?"

I was doing some research ... looking for well-grounded opinions, and I stumbled across thorinoakenshield.net. I was reading (quite eagerly) a piece called In Defense of Thorin Oakenshield. It seemed well researched ... until ... I got to the frustrating reference about Thranduil ... "The Elvenking’s longstanding desire for dwarf treasure is infamous..."
What? Infamous?!! Says who? And once again I realized that the whole piece was a mixture of Tolkien and Peter Jackson. ARGH!! (I should have been warned by the interspersing of images from the movie with the Tolkien art. Heavy sigh.

So ... again, I went searching for a summary, but this time a summary from Tolkien's writings on the true basis for the animosity between Dwarves and Elves. I think this one is as good as it gets.

Overall Elves and Dwarves were mutually respectful, if not friendly, in the First Age:

• Ever cool was the friendship between the Naugrim and the Eldar, though much profit they had one of the other; but at that time those griefs that lay between them had not yet come to pass, and King Thingol welcomed them. But the Naugrim gave their friendship more readily to the Noldor in after days than to any others of Elves and Men.

They collaborated in works like the creation of the fortress of Menegroth in Doriath:

• the Naugrim laboured long and gladly for Thingol, and devised for him mansions after the fashion of their people, delved deep in the earth. Where the Esgalduin flowed down, and parted Neldoreth from Region, there rose in the midst of the forest a rocky hill, and the river ran at its feet. There they made the gates of the hall of Thingol, and they built a bridge of stone over the river, by which alone the gates could be entered. Beyond the gates wide passages ran down to high halls and chambers far below that were hewn in the living stone, so many and so great that that dwelling was named Menegroth, the Thousand Caves.

Thingol's murder was the trigger that changed the relationship - Thingol had thought to combine the greatest work of the Elves (a Silmaril) and that of the Dwarves, the Nauglamir. He hired dwarves from Nogrod to do so, who seized the Silmaril and refused to return it. When Thingol attempted to recover it, the dwarves slew him and were then slain in turn:

• Thingol went down alone to their deep smithies, and sat ever among them as they worked. In time his desire was achieved, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves were brought together and made one; and its beauty was very great, for now the countless jewels of the Nauglamír did reflect and cast abroad in marvellous hues the light of the Silmaril amidmost. Then Thingol, being alone among them, made to take it up and clasp it about his neck; but the Dwarves in that moment withheld it from him, and demanded that he yield it up to them. ... they rose up about him, and laid hands on him, and slew him as he stood.
  ...
  Then the Dwarves taking the Nauglamír passed out of Menegroth and fled eastwards through Region. But tidings went swiftly through the forest, and few of that company came over Aros, for they were pursued to the death as they sought the eastward road. ... Yet two there were of the slayers of Thingol who escaped from the pursuit on the eastern marches, and returned at last to their city far off in the Blue Mountains; and there in Nogrod they told somewhat of all that had befallen, saying that the Dwarves were slain in Doriath by command of the Elvenking, who thus would cheat them of their reward.

The two dwarven escapees then incited their people to war over this - the result was the Sack of Doriath, and the destruction of one of the great Elven realms:

• the Dwarves held on their way, and passed over the great bridge, and entered into Menegroth; and there befell a thing most grievous among the sorrowful deeds of the Elder Days. For there was battle in the Thousand Caves, and many Elves and Dwarves were slain; and it has not been forgotten. But the Dwarves were victorious, and the halls of Thingol were ransacked and plundered.

After that there was a level of mutual distrust between the races, with occasional thawing of the relationship - Eregion and Moria being another example, as seen in the carving on the doors to the Mines of Moria.

All of the quotes are from The Silmarillion.

There's a very long enmity between them. It dates right back to the First Age, when Dwarves murdered the Elf King Thingol of Doriath after a quarrel over the Nauglamir, the Necklace of the Dwarves, which had been set with the last remaining Silmaril, an Elf-made jewel. You can read the full story in The Silmarillion, and in even more details in The Children of Hurin.

Later there was a bit of a rapprochement, especially between the Dwarves of Moria and the Elves of neighbouring Hollin. But the Elves blamed the Dwarves for awakening the Balrog under Moria, and were never friendly again until the events of the Lord of the Rings.

Just hoping to clear things up. Now ... back to Thorin.

[Merry]

Wow: that's quite a picture of Thorin! Is that your own summary of events, RR? It's a good one.

It's interesting that so much mayhem came about as the result of jewels. I guess I can understand the desire for gold, for gold is money and can buy many things. But these folks seem to covet the jewels for their own sakes. I can't think of a real life human historical parallel of going to war over specific jewelry. So I wonder if Tolkien is trying to signal to us that this kind of thing is just folly.

Lindariel, I must disagree with something you said in your last post. Both Bard and Thranduil indicate their willingness to battle for the treasure, even after they knew that Thorin was alive. Although their primary strategy was going to be siege, Bard was already trying to convince Thranduil that they should attack right away, while the dwarves were still weak and before they had rested. Thranduil still advocated siege, but only because he said that they had the great advantage in numbers should it come to battle. Tolkien is a little unclear about who attacked first. Dain's army was approaching, and "Bows twanged and arrows whistled; battle was about to be joined." I suppose it's possible that dwarves used bows and arrows, but they are not their weapons of choice.

I guess I understand the desire to see the elves as the 'angels' in Middle-earth and beyond, but I think Tolkien's intention was to show that they were just as morally fallible as men and dwarves and hobbits.

[Riv Res]

Is that your own summary of events, RR? It's a good one.

No Merry, I found it somewhere on the internet, and you're right ... it is a great summary. There are so many obscure Tolkien websites out there (LOL ... kind of like us here at MeJ ) that it is hard to even find the ones again that you want to credit here on our forums.

[Riv Res]

It's interesting that so much mayhem came about as the result of jewels. I guess I can understand the desire for gold, for gold is money and can buy many things. But these folks seem to covet the jewels for their own sakes. I can't think of a real life human historical parallel of going to war over specific jewelry. So I wonder if Tolkien is trying to signal to us that this kind of thing is just folly.

Merry, you're right about Tolkien's penchant for coveting jewels, but don't most of them have mystical powers attached to them? Perhaps it is those powers ... or power in itself ... that Tolkien seems to have his characters chasing and coveting.

[Merry]

Well, I think we ought to look at that. The Silmarils contained the light of the Two Trees, so, yes, mystical, but could they do anything? Time to get out the book!

[Riv Res]

LOL ... well whether they had powers or not ... they could sure make everyone c-r-a-z-y.

From lotr.wikia.com ...

History

Fëanor created the Silmarils during the Years of the Trees in the Noontide of Valinor. They were named for and crafted of the hard crystalline substance silima, and contained some of the light from the Two Trees of Valinor made by Yavanna and Nienna named Telperion the Silver, and Laurelin the Gold. Recognizing their immense beauty, they were hallowed by Varda, Queen of Arda so that no mortal flesh, hands unclean, or anything evil could touch them. Before Melkor began stirring up trouble amongst the Ñoldor, Fëanor would often wear them blazing on his brow at feasts and would allow others to see them, but as he began to suspect his kin he no longer displayed them openly allowing only his father and sons to view them. After Fëanor was exiled to Formenos, the Silmarils were stored in a chamber of iron.

Together with Ungoliant, Melkor destroyed the Two Trees. The Silmarils now contained all the remaining light of the Two Trees. Therefore, the Valar entreated Fëanor to give up the Silmarils so they could restore the Trees, but he refused. Then news came: Melkor had killed Fëanor's father Finwë, the High King of the Ñoldor, and stolen all the gems, including the Silmarils. After this deed, Melkor fled to the northlands of Middle-earth, where his ancient fortress was. Melkor, now named Morgoth by Fëanor, set the Silmarils in his crown.

Fëanor was furious at Melkor and at the Valar's perceived desire to take the gems for their own purposes. He and his seven sons swore that they would wage war against any being that withheld a Silmaril from them. Fëanor, as well as the greater part of the Ñoldor, traveled back to Middle-earth in pursuit of Morgoth. His flight, which began the First Age of Middle-earth, led to no end of grief for the Elves and eventually for the Men of Middle-earth. Five major battles were fought in Beleriand, but ultimately the Ñoldor failed.

One of the Silmarils was recovered by Beren (son of Barahir and Emeldir) and Lúthien (daughter of Thingol and Melian the Maiar Queen of Doriath) through great peril and loss. This stone was later taken by Eärendil, the husband of their granddaughter Elwing, to the Valar in the West as a token of repentance. The Valar then set this Silmaril as a star. The other two gems remained in Morgoth's hands, and were taken from him only at the end of the War of Wrath. However, soon afterwards, they were stolen by Fëanor's two sons Maedhros and Maglor. The jewels burned their hands, in refusal of their rights of possession, as they had burned Morgoth's hands many years before. In agony, Maedhros threw himself and his Silmaril into a fiery pit, and Maglor threw his into the sea. Thus, the Silmarils remained in all three realms of Arda — in the sky, beneath the earth, and within the sea.


Prophecy

In most versions of the texts, following Melkor's final return and defeat in the Dagor Dagorath (Battle of Battles), the world will be changed and the Three Silmarils will be recovered by the Valar, and Yavanna will break them and with their light she will revive the Two Trees, the Pelori Mountains will be flattened and the light of the Two Trees will fill Arda again in a new age of eternal bliss.