The Silmarillion - General Discussion

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:02 pm

I would, Bruce! But would you give us until after Christmas to review the relevant chapters?

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:58 pm

Me too - but I also need to do some catching up there!

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:45 am

For fans of Beren and Luthien, we are having a fun conversation in the movie thread at Writers of Rohan (writersofrohan.com) in which we are casting the major roles in the movie version (which will probably never be made, but one can dream!). Join us!

marbretherese · Post by **marbretherese** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:27 pm

At last! having finally read The Sil (thanks to Iolanthe - what a lovely birthday present!), I've been able to read and understand this thread. I've particularly enjoyed the discussion about Turin, whose story I found most moving (although my favourite tale was Yavanna's creation of the two trees).

And, although I didn't find The Sil too difficult to follow, I do agree with Merry: if I'd read it first, I wouldn't have considered looking at LOTR.

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:23 pm

I love the creation of the two trees, what a beautiful idea - so poetic - and their destruction by Unogilant is awful to read.

I can't believe you've finished it already

. I'm still only half way through and I've been reading it since...um...since rather a long time ago

. But I have read other books inbetween...

It does shed a lot of light on Lord of the Rings, though, doesn't it? All that back history explaining the different Elves (

) and their longing for the West, even the source of the Tree of Gondor and why it was important. Definitely not one for reading first though.

Is there some of it you'd like to get your teeth into here?

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:13 pm

I love the two trees, too! Tolkien was, by all accounts, a tree-hugger. I think he wrote in a letter that he feels the destruction of trees as acutely as some see the death of animals. I guess it's not surprising that he would give them this mythological beginning.

And speaking of mythological beginnings, is anyone interested in talking about The Sil from the beginning, i.e., the creation myth?

marbretherese · Post by **marbretherese** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:19 pm

I had to read it all through pretty quickly to keep track of who was who

And the creation myth, which Merry suggested for discussion, is one of my favourite parts of The Sil. I love the idea of singing something into existence; many New Age philosophies lean towards the idea that matter starts out as vibration, gradually becomes more dense and takes a physical (or semi physical) form. And I thnk quantum physics might embrace that too (but don't quote me, I'm no expert!).

As Tolkien constantly revised The Sil, I'd love to know whether the singing-into-existence was there from the beginning, or evolved later on. Does anyone know? I've just started reading "Tolkien and the Great War" by John Garth, so if I come across anything in that, I'll let you know!

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:59 pm

That's a good question. I wonder when he decided to write that part too. Did he write a lot of the stories about the elves then work his way back to a full creation myth?

It's also one of my favourite parts of the Sil. There are so many 'songs' in Tolkien, though we read them as poems not hear them as music, that I can't imagine him choosing any other way to depict creation. Music runs right through his work although we never hear ay of it with our ears.

The beginning of the Sil reminds me of the Music of the Spheres and the wonderful image of God asking Job where he was when all the Morning Stars sang together as he laid the foundations of the earth.

Kelkhatan · Post by **Kelkhatan** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:29 pm

I am really sad, that I could not join earlier for I would have a lot of points to raise! But it seems you are tired of discussing hte Sil.

Greetings kel

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:44 pm

Maybe not, Kel! With a small membership who have active Real Lives, sometimes our timing doesn't coincide. Do you have a topic or question to propose?

Kelkhatan · Post by **Kelkhatan** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:45 am

Ok, I will share some thoughts concerning "The Silmarillion". As I metioned in my interduction I love the Sil the most and even tend now to love "The unfinished Tales" the same.

There have been some question in the room, why Tolkien did follow the most of the time the principal of creating evil of the most flawless things and characters like Morgoth, Feanor, Noldor, Silmarils, "Turin" ? (I hope you understand what I mean

it is late and its not my native language ) Or why is the Silmarillion full of war, death, deceit, sorrow?

For sure there are a lot of reasons for it:

- Tolkien started writing The Silmarillion while he was in the trenches (I hope that is the right word for the tunnels during the war) He went through "hell" and tried to understand, why human beings could possibly do such a horrible thing like war. Maybe he even asked himself how he turned into a tool of evil. "innocent", "valiant" men had been made sinister by war and leaders
There are similarities with a lot of parts of the books ---> the palantiri, the rings, the silmarillions and so on.

- In our world the most things start with a vision, a vision is the energy and the love that drives us. And every vision starts somehow flawless promissing hope, glory and "power". But visions can turn in obsession, and with obsession comes hatred. And this is perfectely shown in The Sil

- There are some more points but I get really tired, maybe, if you are interested I will share later

Only short: Somebody mentioned that there are circles, which deem to call the Silmarillion a dictionary like book for enlighten the LotR more...

The Silmarillion is in fact Tolkien' "lifetime-art-piece" to finish it, was ever his goal, which in his eyes he never achived.
In my opinion it is clear that he could not bring it to the end, for "arda" was bound to him as he was bound to arda. (hope you anderstand this picture)

Final note:

There have been the opinion, The Silmarillion is a picture of the world and its inhabitants through the eyes of a fantasy writer...

I guess that "The Silmarillion" mirrores not the world around us, it shows us the world that is in every one of us through the eyes of a farsighted genius.
I thank him for that

When you have question about my point of view do not hesitate to ask them

Good night

Kel[/i]

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:27 am

This is great! Nice to have some fresh discussion here, Kel!

I think you're right that we have to see the Sil as an effort to understand the suffering and death that JRRT experienced in the Great War. (Yes, 'trenches' is the word.

) I also think it needs to be understood as his effort to reconcile this experience with his religious faith, his belief in a good God. So how could a loving God allow so many people to die? Only if death is not the worst thing. So the whole 'death is a gift of Eru to mortals' theme is carefully developed. His view of evil as the marring of what once was good, which you also point out, can also be seen as growing out of his religious faith.

I'm not as big a fan of the Sil as you are, Kel, but I certainly don't see it as just a reference book for LOTR, as you've heard some say. That's not a very informed view! I do think it is the love of Tolkien's literary life. I think my problem with it is that it is unfinished. LOTR is so incredibly polished--maybe an author can only produce one of those works in life.

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:17 am

Kel, I'm so glad you want to talk about the Sil! You have some very good points. It was, as you say, his ongoing life's work - his inner mythology - and the fertile ground that LOTR grew out of when he was asked to write a sequel to The Hobbit. I certainly don't take it as just a reference for LOTR, it was born long before and stayed with him his whole life. I like your comment that 'he could not bring it to the end, for "arda" was bound to him as he was bound to arda'. How can one end a constantly evolving and complex mythology that arose out of his very soul?

Merry wrote:His view of evil as the marring of what once was good, which you also point out, can also be seen as growing out of his religious faith.

And the fact that evil cannot itself create, only mar, twist and distort creation.

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:51 pm

Kel,

Very good insights for a brief list of descriptions for the Silmarillion. I too agree that all creation starts with a vision. The over-arching theme of creation for artifice brings into the philosophic question of wisdom and will. The problem of free will and the tension of good and evil is the razor's edge that all races must walk within this grand opus. Without the Silmarillions there would be no Beren and Luthien, yet the sons of Feanor and those of the other races of Elves are tied to the doom of Mandos, what later became known as the long defeat.
One of the longest and most complex story is that of Turin Turambar, a longer and more fuller version is to be found in the Unfinsihed Tales, Narn I Hin Hurin. In this very complex tale we see the same themes that are found in the Iliad of Homer. Are the circumstances of our lives determined by powers beyond our reckoning or are we inextricably tied to the nature of our characters? How far will our wills take us and what actions we choose will create circumstances that are for good or ill.
Through out the ages, artifice and will are tested again and again against wisdom and dominance. Its is a very rich text for culling many philosophic and literary themes.

Kelkhatan · Post by **Kelkhatan** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:00 pm

Wisely spoken bruce.

And I want to auggest everyone here at least reading Narn I Hin Hurin in Unfinished Tales, who like the truely sad story Turin! It gives a lot of insights!