My children know this poem. I taught it to them last year. Last night when we were watching fireworks put on by our small town for our annual Autumn festival they recited these words to me. To say the least, I was proud of them.The finest rockets ever seen:
they burst in stars of blue and green,
or after thunder golden showers
came falling like a rain of flowers.
Poetry of J.R.R. Tolkien
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Philipa
- Ulmo
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One small poem spoke by Sam after Gandalf met his peril by Shadow and Flame always strikes a chord for me. I think it is because it comes from Sam...not the most elegant of creatures but certainly one with many atributes throughout this tale.

Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!
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Merry
- Varda
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Philipa, it's so cool that you taught those lines to your kids! (I have always been grateful that my parents and teachers forced me to memorize poetry. Do they do that in schools any more?) Another of my favorite spots in LOTR is when the hobbits are telling stories, with Strider, I think, around the fire, and somebody starts chanting about Gilgalad, the Elvenking, and they are all surprised to find that it is Sam!
Lindariel, I love 'Elbereth, Gilthoniel', too! In the occasional wild moment, I think about stenciling it in a soft color as a border around my bedroom--it is so soothing to say aloud. It's a beautiful image to think of the god/dess looking down on us through the lacy boughs of trees.
Lindariel, I love 'Elbereth, Gilthoniel', too! In the occasional wild moment, I think about stenciling it in a soft color as a border around my bedroom--it is so soothing to say aloud. It's a beautiful image to think of the god/dess looking down on us through the lacy boughs of trees.
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
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Riv Res
- Manwë
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I am most certainly not a linguist, and therefore Tolkien's Elvish does not role off the tongue for me...but his poetry does.
Lindariel, your insigths are wonderful, and I especially like your comment of the the sense of "longing" that runs through much of Tolkien's text, and is quite prevelent in his poetry. I would have to say that it is a central theme particularly in poems attributed to the Elves or the Hobbits. It laso appears (at least to me
) that this longing is for peace of mind, rest, and a returning to one's place of origin (home?).
Be it a Hobbit...
I sit beside the fire and think of people long ago,
and people who will see a world that I shall never know.
But all the while I sit and think of times there were before,
I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.
Be it an Elf...
Namárië! Nai hiruvalyë Valimar.
Nai elyë hiruva. Namárië!
Farewill! Maybe thou shalt find Valimar.
Maybe even thou shalt find it. Farewell!
Finally...is it just me...or is Bilbo set up to be the poet laureate of Middle-earth?
Lindariel, your insigths are wonderful, and I especially like your comment of the the sense of "longing" that runs through much of Tolkien's text, and is quite prevelent in his poetry. I would have to say that it is a central theme particularly in poems attributed to the Elves or the Hobbits. It laso appears (at least to me
Be it a Hobbit...
I sit beside the fire and think of people long ago,
and people who will see a world that I shall never know.
But all the while I sit and think of times there were before,
I listen for returning feet and voices at the door.
Be it an Elf...
Namárië! Nai hiruvalyë Valimar.
Nai elyë hiruva. Namárië!
Farewill! Maybe thou shalt find Valimar.
Maybe even thou shalt find it. Farewell!
Finally...is it just me...or is Bilbo set up to be the poet laureate of Middle-earth?
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Lindariel
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I also find it very interesting that Tolkien gave Varda/Elbereth so many "incarnations" for the elves. She is beloved by them as the "Star-Kindler" (Gilthoniel/Tintalle) and as the Queen of Stars (Elentari), but she is also revered as Fanuilos "the Intercessor," the one who hears their prayers and lamentations. According to Tolkien's description of her in The Sil:
J.E.A. Tyler adds the following in his work The Tolkien Companion:
In visions of her as Fanuilos, she is veiled because her beauty is simply too overwhelming to behold.Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Iluvatar lives still in her face . . . . if Manwe is with her, Varda hears more clearly than all other ears the sound of voices that cry from east to west, from the hills and the valleys, and from the dark places that Melkor has made upon Earth. Of all the Great Ones who dwell in this world the Elves hold Varda most in reverence and love. Elbereth they name her, and they call upon her name out of the shadows of Middle-earth, and uplift it in song at the rising of the stars.
J.E.A. Tyler adds the following in his work The Tolkien Companion:
So, one could view A Elbereth Gilthoniel as another aspect of elven "faith" or "worship," eh Merry? Somewhat akin to the Ave Maria or even the Kyrie?Fanuilos One of the ceremonial titles of ELBERETH, in her aspect as divine or demiurgic intercessary. In this role she was often thought of as standing on the slopes of Mount Oiolosse, radiant with inner (divine) light, arms uplifted as she listened to invocations for aid from Men and Elves.
Lindariel
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
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Merry
- Varda
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Definitely, Lindariel. I'm sure that Tolkien was educated enough to see how his Catholic devotion to Mary was similar to other forms of goddess worship in history. Of course, with his view of the truth of myth, that would not have caused him to doubt in the least. The hymns sound very much like songs we sang in my youth, including litanies that contained long lists of names/titles for Mary.
RR, Bilbo as Poet Laureate? I love that thought! It is interesting that the normally prosaic hobbits grow to love poetry and scholarship as a result of their adventures. Maybe their ordinary ways of speaking and writing just aren't up to expressing their new stories.
RR, Bilbo as Poet Laureate? I love that thought! It is interesting that the normally prosaic hobbits grow to love poetry and scholarship as a result of their adventures. Maybe their ordinary ways of speaking and writing just aren't up to expressing their new stories.
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
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Lindariel
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- Location: The Hall of Fire, Imladris (otherwise known as Northern Virginia)
Riv, you made a tantalizing reference to my second favorite Tolkien poem -- Galadriel's breath-taking and haunting Namárië:
Ah! like gold fall the leaves in the wind,
long years numberless as the wings of trees!
The long years have passed like swift draughts
of the sweet mead in lofty halls
beyond the West, beneath the blue vaults of Varda
wherein the stars tremble
in the voice of her song, holy and queenly.
Who now shall refill the cup for me?
For now the Kindler, Varda, the Queen of the stars,
from Mount Everwhite has uplifed her hands like clouds
and all paths are drowned deep in shadow;
and out of a grey country darkness lies
on the foaming waves between us,
and mist covers the jewels of Calacirya forever.
Now lost, lost to those of the East is Valimar!
Farewell! Maybe thou shalt find Valimar!
Maybe even thou shalt find it! Farewell!
This text just DESTROYS me:
"Who now shall refill the cup for me?"
"Now lost, lost to those of the East is Valimar!"
Galadriel's grief and homesickness could not be more immediate! And it is quite clear that her memories of seeing Varda on Mount Everwhite are painfully fresh despite the millenia that have past since her exile in Middle-earth.
And her final lines, directed to Frodo, are SO profoundly generous! "Maybe thou shalt find Valimar!" She indirectly reminds him that he, a tiny hobbit of the Shire, has the capacity to accomplish what she cannot do herself, despite her great power -- save the world -- a momentous achievement that would surely earn him a place in the Undying Lands, even though he is not an elf!
I also find it interesting that she sings to them in Quenya, the ancient language of the Noldor that had been banned in Middle-earth by Thingol after he learned of the Kin-Slaying at Alqualonde. It is another testament of her homesickness that she would sing to them in this forbidden "underground" language. Especially in front of Celeborn, who is Thingol's kinsman!
Every time I read this, I try to imagine Galadriel's voice as she sings -- a rich, golden alto floating to them over the Anduin. [More shivers.]
For a detailed linguistic analysis, please see http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/namarie.htm .
[Ooooh! Shivers of awe and delight] I have NO idea what Finnish sounds like, but that's the language Tolkien used as the foundation for Quenya. The translation is just heart-breaking:Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen,
yéni únótimë ve rámar aldaron!
Yéni ve lintë yuldar avánier
mi oromardi lissë-miruvóreva
Andúnë pella, Vadro tellumar
ne luini yassen tintilar i eleni
óryo airetári-lírien.
Sí man i yulma nin enquantuva?
An sí Tintallë Varda Oiolossëo
ve fanyar máryat Elentári ortanë
ar ilyë tier undulávë lumbulë
ar sindanóriello caita mornië
i falmalinnar imbë met,
ar hísië untúpa Calaciryo míri oialë.
Sí vanwa ná, Rómello vanwa, Valimar!
Namárië! Nai hiruvalyë Valimar!
Nai elyë hiruva! Namárië!
Ah! like gold fall the leaves in the wind,
long years numberless as the wings of trees!
The long years have passed like swift draughts
of the sweet mead in lofty halls
beyond the West, beneath the blue vaults of Varda
wherein the stars tremble
in the voice of her song, holy and queenly.
Who now shall refill the cup for me?
For now the Kindler, Varda, the Queen of the stars,
from Mount Everwhite has uplifed her hands like clouds
and all paths are drowned deep in shadow;
and out of a grey country darkness lies
on the foaming waves between us,
and mist covers the jewels of Calacirya forever.
Now lost, lost to those of the East is Valimar!
Farewell! Maybe thou shalt find Valimar!
Maybe even thou shalt find it! Farewell!
This text just DESTROYS me:
"Who now shall refill the cup for me?"
"Now lost, lost to those of the East is Valimar!"
Galadriel's grief and homesickness could not be more immediate! And it is quite clear that her memories of seeing Varda on Mount Everwhite are painfully fresh despite the millenia that have past since her exile in Middle-earth.
And her final lines, directed to Frodo, are SO profoundly generous! "Maybe thou shalt find Valimar!" She indirectly reminds him that he, a tiny hobbit of the Shire, has the capacity to accomplish what she cannot do herself, despite her great power -- save the world -- a momentous achievement that would surely earn him a place in the Undying Lands, even though he is not an elf!
I also find it interesting that she sings to them in Quenya, the ancient language of the Noldor that had been banned in Middle-earth by Thingol after he learned of the Kin-Slaying at Alqualonde. It is another testament of her homesickness that she would sing to them in this forbidden "underground" language. Especially in front of Celeborn, who is Thingol's kinsman!
Every time I read this, I try to imagine Galadriel's voice as she sings -- a rich, golden alto floating to them over the Anduin. [More shivers.]
For a detailed linguistic analysis, please see http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/namarie.htm .
Last edited by Lindariel on Tue May 08, 2007 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Lindariel
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
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Merry
- Varda
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Lindariel
- Posts: 1062
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While we are on the subject of Galadriel, let us also consider this beautiful little gem that sprang from Gandalf's lips in response to Wormtongue's slander against the "Sorceress of the Golden Wood."
I think it is interesting to remember that Gandalf has just recently spent time with Galadriel and Celeborn in Lothlorien, recovering from his death and resurrection after defeating the Balrog. "I tarried there in the ageless time of that land where days bring healing not decay. Healing I found, and I was clothed in white. Counsel I gave and counsel took." Echoes of this recuperative time in Dwimordene can be found throughout the poem.
I also find Gandalf's reference "White is the star in your white hand," a very interesting acknowledgment from one Ringbearer to another, especially when one considers the following exchange between Frodo and Aragorn:
After softly singing this song, Gandalf casts aside his tattered grey cloak, reveals himself as Gandalf the White, utters (among other choice words) his memorable line, "I have not passed through fire and death to bandy crooked words with a serving-man till the lightning falls," and proceeds to bring Theoden out of the shadow of Wormtongue's twisted counsel.In Dwimordene, in Lórien
Seldom have walked the feet of Men,
Few mortal eyes have seen the light
That lies there ever, long and bright.
Galadriel! Galadriel!
Clear is the water of your well;
White is the star in your white hand;
Unmarred, unstained is leaf and land
In Dwimordene, in Lórien
More fair than thoughts of Mortal Men.
I think it is interesting to remember that Gandalf has just recently spent time with Galadriel and Celeborn in Lothlorien, recovering from his death and resurrection after defeating the Balrog. "I tarried there in the ageless time of that land where days bring healing not decay. Healing I found, and I was clothed in white. Counsel I gave and counsel took." Echoes of this recuperative time in Dwimordene can be found throughout the poem.
I also find Gandalf's reference "White is the star in your white hand," a very interesting acknowledgment from one Ringbearer to another, especially when one considers the following exchange between Frodo and Aragorn:
All-in-all, the poem/song is a beautiful tribute to Galadriel, especially coming from one who is in reality one of the Maiar!"Rich are the hours, though short they seem, in Caras Galadhon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring."
"That should not have been said outside Lorien, not even to me," said Aragorn. "Speak no more of it!"
Lindariel
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
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Lindariel
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Well, well, well, today I located the source for Firiel's Song! It appears in The Lost Road and Other Writings: Language and Legend before The Lord of the Rings, Volume 5 of Christopher Tolkien's History of Middle-earth series. Tolkien wrote a fragment of a "time-travel" story called "The Lost Road" that expands upon the tale of the Fall of Numenor, published in The Silmarillion as the Akallabeth.
In this story, Elendil (not sure if this is THE Elendil who escapes the drowning of Numenor and establishes the Kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor, but I think it is) is out walking with his son Herendil (again, not sure where he was intended to figure into the later story) in a courtyard at night:
Finally, in The Etymologies at the end of the book, Tolkien notes that Firiel means "mortal maiden" and that it was later a name for Luthien! Another very interesting connection, as the elven maid Luthien gave up the immortal life of the elves and the relative certainty of an afterlife in the presence of Iluvatar and took up the highly uncertain destiny of Men all for the love of Beren. "What will the Father, O Father, give me in that day beyond the end when my Sun faileth?" indeed!
In this story, Elendil (not sure if this is THE Elendil who escapes the drowning of Numenor and establishes the Kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor, but I think it is) is out walking with his son Herendil (again, not sure where he was intended to figure into the later story) in a courtyard at night:
That is the only mention of Firiel and her song in the entire story. In a footnote, Christopher Tolkien provides the text for the entire song along with his father's translation.A voice from a high window came falling down like silver into the pool of twilight where they walked. Elendil knew the voice; it was the voice of Firiel, a maiden of his household, daughter of Orontor. His heart sank, for Firiel was dwelling in his house because Orontor had departed. Men said he was on a long voyage. Others said that he had fled the displeasure of the king. Elendil knew that he was on a mission from which he might never return, or return too late. And he loved Orontor, and Firiel was fair.
Now her voice sang an even-song in the Eressean tongue, but made by men, long ago. The nightingale ceased. Elendil stood still to listen; and the words came to him, far off and strange, as some melody in archaic speech sung sadly in a forgotten twilight in the beginning of man's journey in the world.
Ilu Iuvatar en kare eldain a firimoin
ar antarota mannar Valion: numessier . . .
The Father made the World for elves and mortals, and he gave it into the hands of the Lords, who are in the West . . .
So sang Firiel on high, until her voice fell sadly to the question with which that song ends: man tare antava nin Iluvatar, Iluvatar, enyare tar i tyel ire Anarinya qeluva? What will Iluvatar, O Iluvatar, give me in that day beyond the end, when my Sun faileth?
"E man antavaro? What will he give indeed?" said Elendil; and stood in sombre thought.
"She should not sing that song out of a window," said Herendil, breaking the silence. "They sing it otherwise now. Melko cometh back, they say, and the king shall give us the Sun forever."
"I know what they say," said Elendil. "Do not say it to thy father, nor in his house." He passed in at a dark door, and Herendil, shrugging his shoulders, followed him.
I'm very glad and relieved to discover that my instincts about this song have proven to be largely correct. This Firiel is indeed a maiden of Numenor, but she is singing a song that had been written many, many long years ago. And the question at the end of the song is indeed consider and important question that articulates the primary issue of faith among the faithful Numenoreans and that drives the faithless Numenoreans to ultimately challenge the power of the Valar and doom Numenor to the depths of the sea: What is Iluvatar's intention for us after the end of life and after the End of Endings? What comes after death? What comes after the end of the world?The Father made the World for Elves and Mortals
and he gave it into the hands of the Lords: They are in the West.
They are holy, blessed, and beloved: save the dark one.
He is fallen. Melkor has gone from Earth: it is good.
For Elves they made the Moon, but for Men the red Sun,
which are beautiful. To all they gave in measure the gifts
of Ilúvatar. The world is fair, the sky, the seas,
the earth, and all that is in them. Lovely is Numenor.
But my heart resteth not here forever,
for here is ending, and there will be an end and the Fading,
when all is counted, and all numbered at last,
but yet it will not be enough, not enough.
What will the Father, O Father, give me
in that day beyond the end when my Sun faileth?
Finally, in The Etymologies at the end of the book, Tolkien notes that Firiel means "mortal maiden" and that it was later a name for Luthien! Another very interesting connection, as the elven maid Luthien gave up the immortal life of the elves and the relative certainty of an afterlife in the presence of Iluvatar and took up the highly uncertain destiny of Men all for the love of Beren. "What will the Father, O Father, give me in that day beyond the end when my Sun faileth?" indeed!
Lindariel
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
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Merry
- Varda
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- Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
- Location: Middle-west
Sure has been quiet in here!
I think I've admitted before that I have been mostly a poetry-skipper in my readings of LOTR. But last night I read the Earendil the Mariner poem carefully--the one that Bilbo recited in the Hall of Fire. It's wonderful! I noticed for the first time the complicated rhyme scheme, with rhyming words in the middle of some of the lines. It makes reading it out loud really rich.
So why do we think that Aragorn thought it was so important to include the bit about the green stone?
I think I've admitted before that I have been mostly a poetry-skipper in my readings of LOTR. But last night I read the Earendil the Mariner poem carefully--the one that Bilbo recited in the Hall of Fire. It's wonderful! I noticed for the first time the complicated rhyme scheme, with rhyming words in the middle of some of the lines. It makes reading it out loud really rich.
So why do we think that Aragorn thought it was so important to include the bit about the green stone?
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
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Lindariel
- Posts: 1062
- Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:30 pm
- Location: The Hall of Fire, Imladris (otherwise known as Northern Virginia)
From The Encyclopedia of Arda:
As a side note, isn't it interesting that Earendil's Elessar is said to have possessed the power of healing, and Aragorn wears his Elessar as his sole decoration when he is called to the Houses of Healing to minister to Faramir, Eowyn, and Merry? Certainly, Aragorn's healing ability appears to have grown considerably since Weathertop, when he was only able to ease Frodo's suffering somewhat. Glorfindel was able to do more for Frodo later, and it was Master Elrond who ultimately found and removed the sliver of Morgul blade. However, in the Houses of Healing, with the Elessar on his breast, Aragorn is able to call wandering, wounded souls back from the "shadows."
I personally think this enhancement of Aragorn's healing ability, coupled with the description of the gem flashing "like the sun shining through the leaves of spring," certainly suggests that Earendil's Elessar and the stone given to Aragorn are one and the same.
It is interesting for Aragorn to make this request of Bilbo, because at this point in the story, Aragorn has not yet received the Elessar from Galadriel. Nonetheless, Aragorn does know that the name Elessar has been foretold for him, as Galadriel establishes when she gives him the jewel at the Fellowship's departure from Lothlorien:Elessar of Earendil (the first Elf-stone) -- A fabulous green gem made in Gondolin during the First Age. Stories of its creation differ in detail: some name Enerdhil as its maker, but Celebrimbor son of Curufin was more likely to have been the jewelsmith who created it. The Elessar had the light of the Sun trapped within it, and those who looked through it were said to see the withered or aged as whole and young again. It was even claimed to have some power of healing.
This Elessar was saved from the Fall of Gondolin by Idril, who gave it to her son Eärendil, and with Eärendil it was carried across the Sea to the Blessed Realm. In the Third Age, another Elessar was seen - the Elfstone given by Galadriel to Aragorn - and some said that this was Eärendil's jewel, brought back to Middle-earth by Mithrandir. In truth, though, Aragorn's Elessar seems to have been a new stone, also made by Celebrimbor, with less power than the original jewel.
I think by asking Bilbo to put a green gem on Earendil's breast in this poem, Aragorn is making a connection between himself and his illustrious ancestor and expressing his private hope that what has been foretold for him will indeed come to pass.Then she lifted from her lap a great stone of a clear green, set in a silver brooch that was wrought in the likeness of an eagle with outspread wings; and as she held it up the gem flashed like the sun shining through the leaves of spring. "This stone I gave to Celebrian my daughter, and she to hers; and now it comes to you as a token of hope. In this hour take the name that was foretold for you, Elessar, the Elfstone of the house of Elendil!"
As a side note, isn't it interesting that Earendil's Elessar is said to have possessed the power of healing, and Aragorn wears his Elessar as his sole decoration when he is called to the Houses of Healing to minister to Faramir, Eowyn, and Merry? Certainly, Aragorn's healing ability appears to have grown considerably since Weathertop, when he was only able to ease Frodo's suffering somewhat. Glorfindel was able to do more for Frodo later, and it was Master Elrond who ultimately found and removed the sliver of Morgul blade. However, in the Houses of Healing, with the Elessar on his breast, Aragorn is able to call wandering, wounded souls back from the "shadows."
I personally think this enhancement of Aragorn's healing ability, coupled with the description of the gem flashing "like the sun shining through the leaves of spring," certainly suggests that Earendil's Elessar and the stone given to Aragorn are one and the same.
Lindariel
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
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Iolanthe
- Uinen
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That's a great observation about the Elessar and Aragorn's healing powers, Lindariel. I was mulling over the differences between his attempt to help Frodo and his greater healing powers at the end of the book on the Flight to the Ford Chapter thread, the difference being the fact that he couldn't remove the piece of broken blade. But I felt that there was more, that the Aragorn who heals Eowyn, Faramir and Merry has much stronger abilities.
I love the Earendil poem too, Merry. The rhyming is complicated, as you pointed out. Here an example of the rhymes sitting in the middle of some lines that you mentioned:
I love the Earendil poem too, Merry. The rhyming is complicated, as you pointed out. Here an example of the rhymes sitting in the middle of some lines that you mentioned:
It is terrific to read out loud, it really rolls around the tongue. Frodo hears it as 'chanting' while he's asleep and it really catches the feel of it. It is like the ballads of old, written to be read aloud. I love this bit:his bow was made of dragon-horn,
his arrows arrows shorn of ebony
That just has to be read out loud. It's very 'Longfellow'.In panolpy of ancient kings,
in chainéd rings he armoured him;
his shining shield was scored with runes
to ward all wounds and harm from him;
Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
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Merry
- Varda
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Yes, Iolanthe, that's the scheme I was thinking of--I love it!
Lindariel, thanks for all the insights. I had not thought of the possibility that Strider was anticipating receiving the green stone. May be. I did think of the connection between that and the green stone that Glorfindal left at the bridge as a sign of safety: maybe the affinity of elves for green stones has long roots. (I'm pretty fond of emeralds myself!)
It does seem unlikely that Gandalf would bring Earendil's Elessar to Middle-earth. But your speculation about Aragorn's enhanced healing abilities seems to me to be right on! May be the same type of stone, but not the exact same one.
Lindariel, thanks for all the insights. I had not thought of the possibility that Strider was anticipating receiving the green stone. May be. I did think of the connection between that and the green stone that Glorfindal left at the bridge as a sign of safety: maybe the affinity of elves for green stones has long roots. (I'm pretty fond of emeralds myself!)
It does seem unlikely that Gandalf would bring Earendil's Elessar to Middle-earth. But your speculation about Aragorn's enhanced healing abilities seems to me to be right on! May be the same type of stone, but not the exact same one.
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
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Lindariel
- Posts: 1062
- Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:30 pm
- Location: The Hall of Fire, Imladris (otherwise known as Northern Virginia)
Merry, in my various ruminations above regarding Aragorn's possible motivations for asking Bilbo to add a green gem to the Earendil poem, I was thinking more about Aragorn making a connection between the name of Earendil's green stone -- Elessar -- which is the same as the name that had been foretold would one day be his. I wasn't thinking that Aragorn was necessarily anticipating that such a stone would be given to him, although that certainly is a possibility.
Does anyone have any further insight into this quote from the Encyclopedia of Arda:
Also, most references cite that the Elessar was a gift to Aragorn from the Lady Galadriel, but it truth the Elessar actually came to Aragorn from Arwen. Galadriel was the means for delivering the gift:
The Professor's tale is very intricately interwoven indeed, and he does his readers the great courtesy of NOT spoonfeeding it to us!
Does anyone have any further insight into this quote from the Encyclopedia of Arda:
I cannot find any reference to WHO prophesied that the child Aragorn would one day take the name Elessar. Was it his grandmother Ivorwen, who convinced her husband Dirhael to stop opposing Gilraen's marriage to Arathorn II? There is this bit from the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen:Elessar -- High title and surname of Aragorn son of Arathorn. It was long foretold that he would take this name; it was given to him in Lórien by Galadriel. She granted him a gift of a green stone set in a silver brooch in the shape of an eagle as he and the Company of the Ring left her land (on 16 February III 3019). 'In this hour,' she said, 'take the name that was foretold for you, Elessar, the Elfstone of the house of Elendil!' When Aragorn took up the kingship of Gondor, he assumed the name Elessar, and later references to him take the form 'King Elessar'.
In this quote, Ivorwen does foreshadow the name Estel (Hope), but I can't find a reference for the foreshadowing of the name Elessar, other than Galadriel's statement that the name was foretold for him.But Ivorwen, his wife, who was also foresighted answered: "The more need of haste! The days are darkening before the storm and great things are to come. If these two wed now, hope may be born for our people; but if they delay, it will not come while this age lasts."
Also, most references cite that the Elessar was a gift to Aragorn from the Lady Galadriel, but it truth the Elessar actually came to Aragorn from Arwen. Galadriel was the means for delivering the gift:
Again, a very important and often overlooked contribution Arwen makes to the success of the Quest and to Aragorn's ascension to the Kingship of Gondor and Arnor.And Aragorn answered: "Lady, you know all my desire, and long held in keeping the only treasure that I seek [Arwen]. Yet it is not yours to give me, even if you would; and only through darkness shall I come to it."
"Yet maybe this will lighten your heart," said Galadriel; "for it was left in my care to be given to you, should you pass through this land . . . . This stone I gave to Celebrian my daughter, and she to hers [Arwen]; and now it comes to you as a token of hope."
The Professor's tale is very intricately interwoven indeed, and he does his readers the great courtesy of NOT spoonfeeding it to us!
Lindariel
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
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Merry
- Varda
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- Location: Middle-west
True enough! As we've said before, Tolkien was approximating real history, which has many gaps and unexplained loose ends.
Lindariel, I've never read any explanation of who did the foretelling, either. Your suggestion that it was Ivorwen is a good one: Tolkien's little clue that she was 'foresighted' is as close to an explanation as one can come, I think. You are really an excellent Tolkien scholar! Thanks for the insights.
Lindariel, I've never read any explanation of who did the foretelling, either. Your suggestion that it was Ivorwen is a good one: Tolkien's little clue that she was 'foresighted' is as close to an explanation as one can come, I think. You are really an excellent Tolkien scholar! Thanks for the insights.
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.