Tolkien Trivia

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:18 pm

Let's see, Bilbo's grandmother, Belladonna was a Took. Frodo was Bilbo's distant cousin, so his relation to the Took's was through his mother's side of the family.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:48 pm

Nice try, Bruce: you're in the neighborhood, but not exactly. For one thing, Belladonna was Bilbo's mother. (Wouldn't it have been great if Bilbo had been called 'Bilbo son of Belladonna'?

)

Take a look at the Took family tree in Appendix C.

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:33 pm

Hi! I'm back from my conference in Atlanta. Let me see if I can take a stab at answering Merry's question. Here goes.

Pippin's great-grandfather Hildigrim Took was the brother of Frodo's grandmother Mirabella Took Brandybuck. In PJ's movie Pippin declares, "He's my second cousin on his mother's side." I'm thinking it's probably more like second cousins, once removed. Pippin's father Paladin would actually be Frodo's second cousin.

Bilbo and Frodo also have a similar relationship. Bilbo's grandfather Mungo Baggins was the brother of Frodo's great-grandfather Largo Baggins. Thus, Bilbo and Frodo are also second cousins, once removed. Bilbo would be the second cousin of Frodo's father Drogo Baggins.

By the way, of all the hobbits in LOTR, Frodo is actually more closely related to Merry. Merry's grandfather Rorimac Brandybuck was the brother of Frodo's mother Primula Brandybuck Baggins. That would make Frodo and Merry first cousins, once removed. Frodo and Merry's father Saradoc would be first cousins.

OK, my head is now officially spinning . . .

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:35 am

Well done, Lindariel, and welcome back!

Frodo and Pippin are also related on the Baggins side: Hildigrim Took married Rosa Baggins, daughter of Ponto Baggins, who was brother to Largo, Frodo's great-grandfather. So they are twice related.

Can you believe Tolkien went to all the trouble to make these family trees? The names alone are fantastic!

Your turn, Lindariel!

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:22 pm

I didn't spot that Merry! So . . . Frodo's great-aunt married Hildigrim Took, who is Pippin's great-grandfather. I think that still works out to second cousins, once removed, but I may get a splitting headache if I try to think about it anymore!

OK . . . while we're on the subject of hobbits and their many relations, here's another level one question:

What is the by-marriage relationship between Pippin and Sam?

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:28 pm

Sam's daughter Goldilocks married Faramir Took, Pipin's son? As one can see in the line of Sam's children he was not only a productive and successful gardener.

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:43 pm

And thus a strain of "Tookishness" comes into Sam's very earth-bound, stalwart family.

Your turn Bruce!

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:23 pm

...and if I am not mistaken that upsetting episode involving the Three Bears when she was a teenager was forgiven.
So onto the next question, a level 1.
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West. Some courage and some wisdom, blended in measure. If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would a merrier world."
Who said these sage and kind words?

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:31 pm

It took me a while to find it because I was looking in the wrong place! Will wait a while to see if someone else finds the answer before posting.

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 3:22 pm

It is a moving quote is it not Lindariel?

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:48 pm

It is indeed, especially because of WHO says it to WHOM and WHEN.

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:48 pm

OK, Bruce, here's your answer. The kindly words you cited were spoken to Bilbo by none other than Thorin Oakshield as the great dwarf lay on his deathbed after the Battle of Five Armies. These words are particularly poignant, given the harsh words Thorin had applied to Bilbo previously, calling him an "undersized burglar" and a "descendant of rats" after Bilbo had surreptitiously selected the Arkenstone as his 14th share of "the profits" and secretly given it to Gandalf, Bard, and Thranduil to use as a point of negotiation with Thorin. Thus, Bilbo had hoped to avert a war over the distribution of Smaug's treasure between the Dwarves of the Lonely Mountain (and the forces of Dain Ironfoot that would arrive shortly) and the combined forces of the Men of Laketown and the Elves of Mirkwood. Indeed, the initial salvo of just such a war had begun when Gandalf suddenly alerted all parties to the arrival of Bolg's goblin army. And thus began the Battle of Five Armies that ultimately claimed Thorin's life, but not before he could make amends with Bilbo with these kind words.

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:46 pm

Very well done. I still maintain that the Hobbit isn't a children's tale, that it is much more richer and complex piece of literature. Onto the next question, Lindariel.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:00 pm

So, bruce, children's stories can't also be rich and complex?

I do agree with you that your quote is quite wonderful and the scene in which it is delivered is outstanding. I wonder again how much it reflects Tolkien's war experience, sitting in the trenches day after day thinking about what crazy people make these decisions about war and why.

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:13 pm

I think The Hobbit works so well on so many levels. It can certainly be appreciated by children, but I think the overarching themes are aimed straight at their parents. Took me a while to find the quote because I was convinced it was something someone said to Frodo (or perhaps Theoden to Merry?) at some point in his adventures. Turns out I was thinking of the wrong hobbit and the wrong book!

Here's my level one question:

Who was the son of Baranor and what extremely important contribution did he make to our beloved story?