Tolkien in General

[Merry]

Speaking of which, there is a great new calendar post up--make sure to visit! elizabeth writes that Saruman, after having escaped from Isengard, is "bitter and demeaned but not humbled". What a great line! In a way, that was what Gandalf and all were asking him to be: humble. It would have been his salvation.

[Iolanthe]

That is an exellent point and a great key to Saruman's weakness. Externally he might have been demeaned by his defeat but internally his pride and ambition was untouched.

[elizabeth]

Saruman, being Maia has always struck me as one who thought himself better than Middle Earth. It may be that he didn't remember his origins except obliquely but he always seemed to hold himself above everyone. Including Galadriel and Elrond, who elevated as they were, were still only Elves.

Gandalf on the other hand was a participant. He may have felt different but he never came across as though he thought himself better.

To me it seemed as though Saruman felt degraded by his fall at the hands of lesser beings and this made him bitter. He was better than that. He should not have had to endure such humiliation. That is how he struck me.

[Iolanthe]

Gandalf on the other hand was a participant. He may have felt different but he never came across as though he thought himself better.

Yes, and and I think this is one of the many things Cirdan saw in Gandalf when he arrived in M-e. He gave him the Third Ring, Narya the Red, because he "divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest" (Unfinished Tales: The Istari).

There is also a fragment that Christopher Tolkien quotes relating to when the Istari are sent out. Olórin (Gandalf) was the third Messenger chosen:

But Olorin declared that he was too weak for the task and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin [to be the third]. But at that Varda looked up and said: 'Not the third'; and Curumo (Saruman) remembered it.

This goes a long way to explain Saruman's excessive pride (one of the first chosen) and his bitterness towards Gandalf and any refusal to be 'bettered' or thwarted by him. By 'not the third', Varda of course meant 'not the least'. It also explains Saruman's belittling of Gandalf at White Council meetings and his overriding of all advice he offered.

[Merry]

This is a good conversation! Another way to put the difference between the two wizards is in terms of Pity: Gandalf valued it and Saruman didn't, even when it was shown to him. And wasn't Gandalf a devotee of one of the Mayar who specialized in Pity? Nienna?

I think it's interesting how the gods and goddesses each epitomize certain values and kind of sponsor or support those values in Middle-earth. None of them (but Melkor) is evil in itself, but some values, like Pity, are pre-eminent. I also think it's interesting that, even though Manwe is the chief of the gods (second only to Eru), it's Varda who seems to play the major role in our stories. Did Tolkien just love the 'sacred feminine'?

[Iolanthe]

I think Saruman certainly saw pity as a weakness, maybe one of the things he despised in Gandalf.

It's a good point about the Valar sponsoring certain values. Saruman was chosen by Aulë and Christopher Tolkien makes the interesting point in Unfinished Tales: The Istari that 'each Istar was chosen by each Valar for his innate charactaristics'. He thought it was notable that Saruman was proposed by Aulë and that Sauron was also originally one of Aulë's Maiar. Aulë was a smith and craftsman, and, of course, created the dwarves because he couldn't wait for the Children of Iluvatar. Both Sauron and Saruman share a strong desire to create and control (Sauron creates Orcs, Saruman Uruk-hai and machines) and Saruman sees the Ring as a tool that he can control, not a peril that no one can master.

All in all Saruman doesn't seem like a great choice to send over the Sundering Seas .

[bruce rerek]

What is also of note is the overarching theme of what is the appropriate way to use power. The One Ring lures and tempts is victims with unlimited power, but if hollows out the ring wraiths and we find Gollum alone and withered in a lonely cave. Although the Elves used their rings to keep the One Ring in check, they were also used to maintain their realms to perserve them from age or disease. Although this state may seem a desirable choice, is un-naturaly long life, an almost embalmed state really dignify the natural world?
We wintness gods, elves, men, and drawves stumbling over their desires to their own ruin, and yet three Hobbits would redeem such calamities because of pity and not of power.

[Cheyenne Angel]

I looked with the search engine of the forum but I did not find the subject… if in spite of my precautions this message makes double employment or is placed at the bad place, I ask you to agree to excuse me
… but I found this news so much interesting which I wished to divide it with you to see what think you about?

LOS ANGELES (Hollywood Reporter) - Warner Bros. Pictures has pre-emptively picked up the rights to "Here, There Be Dragons," an upcoming children's novel by James A. Owen.

The book brings together three strangers -- John, Jack and Charles -- in London during World War I, where they become entrusted with the Imaginarium Geographica, an atlas of all the lands that have ever existed in myth and legend, fable and fairy tale. They end up traveling to the Archipelago of Dreams, fighting the dark forces that threaten two worlds. It is later revealed that the three are future fantasy authors J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis and Charles Williams, who met in real life at Oxford and enjoyed a competitive friendship.

more and origine here

[Iolanthe]

Interesting Cheyenne, thanks!

Imagine how surprised Tolkien would be to find himself one of the heroes of a fantasy book, though this comment by the author 'In this world, each island is a different fantasy world -- it's the mother lode of all that fantasy. And we get to have fun to see how Tolkien and Lewis got their inspiration' makes me wonder as Tokien's 'mother-lode' was his philological interest in words and making a context for them to exist and evolve. Sounds like a very interesing book though!

[Philipa]

On reading the Two Towers last night I came upon a passage that raised my eyebrows. Not that it was risque or anything but it was an 'ahuh' moment if you will. When Gimli, Aragorn and Legolas enter Fangorn for the first time Legolas said:

'It is old, very old,' said the Elf. 'So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children.

He is of course, referring to Gimli in 'you children' but I wondered at that point has Legolas's age been discussed anywhere?

[Airwin]

I think there may have been a reference to Legolas' age in FOTR, but an actual age is not given. I'll have to go back and see if I can find it (right now I'm floating down Anduin with Aragorn, getting close to Sarn Gebir ).

[Philipa]

I haven't had time to search through FoTR yet Airwin. I'll may be have time this evening to do some searching on line too.

[Lindariel]

Legolas' age has been a subject of debate for quite some time because the Professor never established it in his writings. We also do not know whether he was the only child of Thranduil or whether he had siblings.

Based on the quote cited above among others, there are those who maintain that Legolas is at least 2,500 years old, (if not considerably older) making him a general contemporary of Elrond's children Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen.

However, there are those who maintain that he is a relatively young elf, perhaps only a few hundred years past majority, based on his behavior in certain portions of the story and his seeming lack of knowledge of the world outside of Mirkwood. Aragorn at age 87 seems to know much more about the world than Legolas. I read an article by Michael Martinez about this quite a while ago on Suite101.com. Here's the link www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/36517

Those who argue that Legolas must have had older siblings, including at least one older brother who would have been Thranduil's heir, contend that Thranduil would never have permitted his heir to undertake such a dangerous mission. Therefore, Legolas must have been a younger, expendable son.

It's a plausible argument, however, it can be countered by the fact that Elrond did not hold back either of his sons from active participation in the War of the Ring. And Elrond, as the presumptive High King of the Noldor (Gil-Galad left no heir, and gave the ring Vilya into Elrond's keeping because Elrond's lineage through Earendil and Elwing and hence back to Turgon of Gondolin would have made him Gil-Galad's successor as the sole surviving descendant of Fingolfin), although he never accepted that title, certainly had far greater reason to guard his heir than Thranduil did.

These are all assumptions, however, that can be argued either way. We have no evidence other than vague hints in the Professor's writing to establish either Legolas' age or his standing as a son of Thranduil.

Here's the entry on Legolas' age in The Encyclopedia of Arda. They seem to come down strongly in the camp that maintains Legolas must be several thousand years old:

Though Legolas' age is never established with certainty, he hints several times that he has lived for a very long time indeed. For example, pondering the building of Meduseld in Edoras, he said 'Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since then ... and but a little while does that seem to us' (The Two Towers III 6, The King of the Golden Hall). If he really sees five hundred years as 'a little while', then he would appear to be several thousand years old.

Circumstantial evidence suggests that he was probably born sometime during the Second Age. We know from The Tale of Years that his father, Thranduil, passed into the east of Middle-earth from Lindon in the first millennium of the Second Age. However, this account doesn't mention Legolas his son, strongly suggesting that he had not been born at that point. The fact that Legolas saw himself as one of the Silvan Elves also supports this idea, as his father had not settled among the Silvan people at that time. Most likely, then, he was born after Thranduil had settled in Mirkwood, presumably in the latter part of the Second Age. Roughly speaking, this would make him somewhere between 3,000 and 5,500 years old during the War of the Ring.

It must be admitted that this reasoning is based on indefinite evidence, and it is not impossible that Legolas was much older still. Indeed, there is a mention of an Elf named 'Legolas' in earliest account of the Fall of Gondolin. This is almost certainly not the same character as Legolas of Mirkwood, but it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that Legolas' life stretched back to the First Age, or even before.

[Philipa]

I love it! Thank you so much Lindariel for that thorough post. Many of the points mentioned I was wondering about. So I'm not alone. The issue of the siblings was one that is very intrigueing however, not one anyone can answer.

Such a vast body of work and so many unanswered questions. M-e would have taken two lifetimes to complete.

[Iolanthe]

This is interesting!

Given the quote:

'It is old, very old,' said the Elf. 'So old that almost I feel young again, as I have not felt since I journeyed with you children.

It seems that although Legolas is most probably millenia old, he feels like a young elf in terms of the years of many of the other elves around him, otherwise he wouldn't need the ancient forest to make him feel 'young again'. He clearly feels old with Gimli and Aragorn but isn't used to being 'older'.