The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:04 pm

Who was it, Iolanthe, at Exeter who talked about the literal meaning of 'enchantment'--being in a song? Frodo finds, perhaps, that his story is interwoven with the songs that are being sung in the Hall of Fire?

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:29 am

Merry said: So what could Aragorn have whispered to Arwen that caused her to cast such a piercing gaze onto Frodo? We can only guess, but I have always imagined that it was something akin to "He has the Ring, and so now it all begins: either our hope ends or is fulfilled."

Merry, that makes sense to me. Her piercing gaze could have conveyed many things: (1) assessing Frodo's qualities as the Ringbearer and the bearer of the Hope of Middle-earth; (2) pity for the unimaginable task that has fallen upon such small shoulders; (3) honoring him with a glimpse into her love for Aragorn and how much their hope depends upon him; (4) strengthening him with some portion of her will . . .

Who knows? I have always maintained that Arwen was not just some pretty elf maid who sat placidly waiting for Aragorn to win her lovely hand in marriage. She was the daughter of Elrond and Celebrian, the grand-daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn and of Earendil and Elwing, and a direct descendant of Beren and Luthien the Fair and of Elu Thingol and Melian the Maia.

There is surely wondrous power in her, and I picture her extending that power to watch over Aragorn from afar and lend him her strength (and perhaps Frodo as well) and weaving it into the kingly standard she makes for Aragorn. If you question whether Arwen was capable of weaving magic into this standard, just remember what her ancestress Luthien was able to do with a cloak she wove from her own hair (and how she magically grew her hair to a tremendous length overnight so she would have enough to make both the cloak and the ladder she used to escape from her lovely tree-prison)! I'm convinced that Arwen's standard played a powerful role in Aragorn's ability to summon the Army of the Dead and to attract the scattered men of the coastlands to his banner for their assault on the Pelennor Fields. It certainly declared his majesty as he approached Minas Tirith for his coronation.

Arwen may have done her work from the sidelines, but she was surely NOT a passive creature.

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:55 am

Oooo I like the idea that she wove magic into the banner like Luthien and her cloak. So much better than just passing a bit of cloth on to him! That makes it more than just a symbol, it makes her - in her own way - a participant in the fight. It's not too much of a stretch given the way Tolkien parallels Aragorn and Arwen with Beren and Luthien, and the fact the Beren and Luthien is a core story to all his work - and to his imagination. Great thought!

Merry wrote:Who was it, Iolanthe, at Exeter who talked about the literal meaning of 'enchantment'--being in a song? Frodo finds, perhaps, that his story is interwoven with the songs that are being sung in the Hall of Fire?

It was Patrick Curry and his interesting essay 'Tolkien and Enchantment'. I never did finish putting all the talks up - my memory failed my (and my notes) for some. But all the interesting ones are there

.

hope · Post by **hope** » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:05 pm

It is precisely discussions like these that further bring out the wonder and depth in Tolkiens work as well as differing peoples interpretation of his work.

MEJ never ceases to amaze with the ability to enthrall the reader even more

Philipa · Post by **Philipa** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:59 pm

Strange coincidence?

Thorongil > Aragorn

OK, back to appendix A

While reading this again last week I came across the account of Thorongil good captain and councilor to Ecthelion II Steward of Gondor.

Holy crap! You are not going to believe this but I just answered my own hunch.

You see when reading about Thorongil I was amazed at the similarities he has with Aragorn. Although I did not know the time period for Mr. T I could swear Tolkien was making some connection to Aragorn all along.

I went to find in the Encycl. of Arda the page for Ecthelion II to link to my post and low and behold *shazaam* there is was....

read for yourself

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:59 am

Well done, Philipa!

I think it's cool that Aragorn learned what it was like to be an ordinary citizen of Middle-earth before he became king.

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:48 pm

Yes, indeed, Philipa, Aragorn served both Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion of Gondor under the guise of Thorongil "Eagle of the Star." In this way, he learned first hand a great deal about the governance of both Rohan and Gondor, as well as how to lead companies and armies of men and plan battle strategy. Good preparation for the Kingship of Gondor and Arnor, wouldn't you say?

In PJ's version of TTT, especially the Extended Version, there are some implications that Theoden recognized Aragorn as Thorongil, but said nothing about it. This occurs in some of the exchanges between Aragorn and Theoden, and also in the "awful stew" scene between Eowyn and Aragorn.

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:25 pm

I didn't know it meant "Eagle of the Star" (there's those stars again...). Does anyone know, was the name given to him or did he chose it for himself? Tolkien is so careful with the names he gives characters that I'd love to know more.

It's great you saw that Thorongil had the same characteristics as Aragorn before you knew they were one and the same, Philipa

.

marbretherese · Post by **marbretherese** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:09 pm

Iolanthe wrote:I didn't know it meant "Eagle of the Star" (there's those stars again...). Does anyone know, was the name given to him or did he chose it for himself?

From what I remember of researching my essay on names, he chose it for himself. There might be a reference to it in the Aragorn/Arwen appendix to LOTR. It's definitely mentioned somewhere - unfortunately I've read so much Tolkien now that some of it's rather a blur . . .

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:01 pm

Iolanthe wrote: I didn't know it meant "Eagle of the Star" (there's those stars again...). Does anyone know, was the name given to him or did he chose it for himself?

Yup! Thoron = Eagle Gil = Star. Remember Gil-galad "Star Radiance/Light"? Also, the Great Eagle Thorondor "King of Eagles" Thoron = Eagle Dor = King who retrieved the body of Glorfindel of Gondolin after he died killing the Balrog?

I am not aware that Tolkien enumerates definitively whether Aragorn chose the name Thorongil or whether it was given/suggested to him. Here's the short passage from the Appendices:

In much that he [Ecthelion II] did he had the aid and advice of a great captain whom he loved above all. Thorongil men called him in Gondor, the Eagle of the Star, for he was swift and keen-eyed, and wore a silver star upon his cloak; but no one knew his true name nor in what land he was born.

A very strict interpretation of the passage "Thorongil, men called him" suggests that it was a name given to Aragorn when he refused to give his true name. However, this does not preclude the possibility of Aragorn simply saying, "You may call me Thorongil."

Personally, I cannot believe that Aragorn would set out to establish himself in service to Thengel and then Ecthelion without an alias firmly in place. His reception in Rohan would be tenuous at best, particularly if he showed up completely nameless. "No, I can't tell you my name. Call me whatever you want," just seems a really foolish approach to me when Aragorn wished to befriend Thengel and learn from him. Also, keep in mind that Thengel's Queen, Morwen "Steelsheen" of Lossarnach, was a noblewoman of Gondor, who would immediately understand and appreciate the name Thorongil. Also, Thengel himself spent much of his life in Gondor and returned to Rohan "reluctantly" after the death of his father Fengel to take up the kingship. The name Thorongil would resonate with him as well.

Certainly, Aragorn would have consulted with both Elrond and Gandalf before setting out on this important journey in his education to become the King of Gondor and Arnor. I can imagine either or both of them suggesting that he adopt the alias of "Thorongil" for this task, a noble-sounding Gondorian name that would reflect the symbolism of the silver star of the Dunedain.

Well, that was a long and roundabout way of saying that we don't really know where the name originated, and the Professor's little tidbit of information about it can be interpreted both ways!

marbretherese · Post by **marbretherese** » Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:34 pm

I've found this in the Encyclopaedia of Arda. Where they got it from, however, I can't say. Wish I had my books with me here at the office!

After discovering his true calling, Aragorn took his leave of Elrond and travelled the wilds of Middle-earth. Soon after, he met Gandalf, and the two developed a close friendship and alliance. He then began a series of great ventures throughout Middle-earth. In the southern lands, he served both Thengel of Rohan and Ecthelion II of Gondor, though again he adopted an alias, calling himself 'Thorongil' (Eagle of the Star', an alias taken by Aragorn in his youth, when he journeyed to Rohan and Gondor and performed services to their lords.)

Philipa · Post by **Philipa** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:39 am

Well that passage answers a lot. The name was contrived by himself for the purpose of hiding his true identity.

Stories within stories within stories.....

It's all fascinating to me.

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:36 am

Philipa and marbretherese, I'm pretty sure that entry from the Encyclopedia of Arda is based on the entry about Thorongil from the LOTR Appendices. They are choosing to interpret the Professor's words as indicating that Aragorn chose this name. I tend to agree with them, but we need to be careful. The EOA entry is not a direct quote from the Professor, and as I mentioned above, there are other ways to interpret his words.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:13 am

I agree with you, Lindariel. I think EoA occasionally goes too far.

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:28 pm

Your argument that he must have chosen a name for himself is so convincing, Lindariell! But you're right, unless EofA has another source they are assuming the most likely scenario and turning it into a fact. But the passage in the appendices does seem to imply the men of Gondor chose the name. Perhaps he came with yet another name and identity, not given, then was given the name Thorongil (which suits the charactaristics the men of Gondor saw in him) by which he became better known. As always Tolkien leaves mysteries and possibilities for us to

over for hours

.

This is really interesting - I must read the appendices again. I knew Aragorn had served in Rohan and Gondor as Thorongil but I hadn't appreciated how important he was to Ecthelion II: 'a great captain' 'loved above all' - no wonder you recognised him, Philipa.