The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

[Riv Res]

I knew Aragorn had served in Rohan and Gondor as Thorongil but I hadn't appreciated how important he was to Ecthelion II: 'a great captain' 'loved above all' -

In this respect, was Aragorn/Thorongil the tipping point for Denethor?

Can you just imagine what it must have been like for him, the heir of Ecthelion, to see A/T waltz in and capture the hearts and minds (and loyalty) of absolutely everyone, including his own father. The analogy here is so similar to the biblical story of Seti, Ramses, and Moses. Tolkien's anchor in religion shows very much in this part of the story...IMHO

[Iolanthe]

That's a good point. It's never occurred to me before that Denethor knew Aragorn as Thorongil and might have felt usurped. If Denethor had lived to meet Aragorn after the Battle of the Pelennor he would have had a hefty shock.

[Merry]

Hey, Riv Res, have you been watching 'The Ten Commandments' again? Denethor is certainly 'empirial' in his person and his rule and, because of that, in both situations, no son or son-substitute would ever have been good enough. I can't remember if this is in the book or the movie or both, but somebody says to Denethor that if Boromir had taken the Ring, Denethor would not have recognized his son.

I don't mean to hijack this discussion, and we can leave this on the table if we want to continue this line, but I have a little puzzle: I have been reading 'The Council of Elrond' more carefully than I usually do and have been paying attention to the speakers more. The chapter mentions that there are many powerful elves there, and they've finally emerged as separate people in my mind--Glorfindel, Erestor, and Galdor. Galdor is identified as "an Elf from the Grey Havens who had come on an errand from Cirdan the Shipright." My little question: do we ever find out what that errand is? Was it just that he was Cirdan's representative at the Council, since Cirdan just didn't like to travel too far from the Havens?

Also, in the discussion about whether Bombadil should be given the Ring, Galdor says that TB doesn't have power to defy the enemy, and that what power remains is "here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lorien." We know much later that he is naming the people who had the three Elven rings, but hasn't Gandalf had Cirdan's ring for a long time at this point? I imagine that there are a good number of Elves at the Havens who could put up a bit of a fight, but without the rings, all three places would crumble quickly.

I've always found Cirdan a somewhat enigmatic character, and these things add to it. Any insight?

[Riv Res]

Merry, I am heading for my volumes of The History of Middle-earth to see if Tolkien ever wrote more definitively of Galdor's errand. I will post if I find anything more iluminating.

Concerning Cirdan giving the ring to Gandalf...I don't know why but I have always been under the impression that it was not common knowledge that he had done so...sort of a secret weapon for Gandalf. So the question would become whether Galdor knew of the gift when he spoke at the CoE, or was he part of the secret? Can anyone remember if it is mentioned that Saruman knew of the gift? Was that part of his jealousy/scorn of Gandalf?

Is this perhaps one of those instances where after so many re-writes, Tolkien left conflicting scenarios in this part of the story?

Much to ponder and research.

[Iolanthe]

I've found the answer in... guess what... the Unfinished Tales in the chapter about the Istari:

Cirdan gives Gandalf the Third Ring, Narya the Red and says

'For,' said he, 'great labours and perils lie before you, and lest your task prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret....' ..... And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger [Saruman] (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.

So Saruman knew about the Ring, but Gandalf kept it secret as Cirdan did. I guess from what Elrond was saying that he still believed that Narya was with Cirdan and even he didn't know Gandalf had it.

At what point in LotR is it revealed that Gandalf has Narya? I know he first wears it openly at the Grey Havens.

[Riv Res]

Great find Iolanthe! Those guys could sure keep a secret.

[Philipa]

At what point in LotR is it revealed that Gandalf has Narya? I know he first wears it openly at the Grey Havens.

I believe that it is at Grey Havens that Tolkien mentions the three rings leave Middle-earth and not before.

Very nice conversation!

[Merry]

I think Elrond had to have known that Gandalf had the ring--remember the scene when they are all going home after the war when the holders of the Three communed without words? Their minds had to be open to each other in some way. But it makes sense, maybe, that Galdor didn't know that Gandalf had it. It sounds like Cirdan didn't use the ring when he had it, so the elves at the Haven wouldn't have noticed that the magic had dropped off a bit when Gandalf left town!

[Lindariel]

Actually, I can't imagine that Galdor would have known that Cirdan ever possessed Narya. Cirdan tells Gandalf that Narya was given to him "to keep in secret." That means he shouldn't tell anyone, including Galdor, about it.

Remember that Gil-galad originally possessed both Vilya and Narya. He gave Narya to Cirdan at some point (I would imagine that it would become unbearable to possess TWO of the elven rings). He gave Vilya to Elrond before the Battle of the Last Alliance. I think his intention was to indicate that Elrond was his heir, since he had no children, but Elrond refused to take up the High Kingship of the Noldor after Gil-galad's death.

Also, I don't believe it is supposed to be known that Elrond and Galadriel also possess elven rings. I believe when Galdor refers to Imladris, Lothlorien, and the Grey Havens as centers of power that he is speaking in much more general terms. Whether they house magic rings or not, these three elven enclaves are the last remaining strongholds of elvish might in Middle-earth in terms of wisdom, lore, and experience, as well as militarily. Certainly, Cirdan and his mariners and their magnificent ships would be a force to be reckoned with!

Interesting, by the way, that no one mentions Thranduil and his "kingdom" in Mirkwood as a center of elvish power . . . .

[Merry]

I think you're right, Lindariel. We saw in Lothlorien that Sam couldn't even see Galadriel's ring when she was wearing it. It was undoubtedly so important that Sauron never find out about the Three that it was kept a great secret even among the elves.

[Lindariel]

Merry, referring back to your earlier comment below:

Denethor is certainly 'empirial' in his person and his rule and, because of that, in both situations, no son or son-substitute would ever have been good enough. I can't remember if this is in the book or the movie or both, but somebody says to Denethor that if Boromir had taken the Ring, Denethor would not have recognized his son.

Denethor most certainly felt that Gandalf was attempting to usurp him on several fronts. First, by usurping the affections of his youngest son Faramir, turning him into a "Wizard's pupil." But Denethor's most revealing statement is the following quote from "The Pyre of Denethor":

"Do I not know thee, Mithrandir? Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west. I have read thy mind and its policies . . . . With the left hand thou wouldst use me for a little while as a shield against Mordor, and with the right bring up this Ranger of the North to supplant me.

"But I say to thee, Gandalf Mithrandir, I will not be thy tool! I am Steward of the House of Anarion. I will not step down to be the dotard chamberlain of an upstart. Even were his claim proved to me, still he comes but of the line of Isildur. I will not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity . . . .

"I would have things as they were in all the days of my life . . . and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated."

PJ used some of this in the throneroom scene between Gandalf, Pippin, and Denethor in ROTK. Really strong stuff. Denethor's greatest flaw was pride, which Sauron certainly twisted to his advantage through the palantir. In the Appendices, we learn that Denethor either strongly suspected or outright knew who Thorongil was:

But there was little love between Denethor and Gandalf; and after the days of Ecthelion there was less welcome for the Grey Pilgrim in Minas Tirith. Therefore later, when all was made clear, many believed that Denethor, who was subtle in mind and looked further and deeper than other men of his day, had discovered who this stranger Thorongil in truth was, and suspected that he and Mithrandir designed to supplant him.

It must have roiled Denethor almost beyond reason to be given glimpses through the palantir of Aragorn in company with Boromir and the Fellowship being led by Mithrandir. All of his suspicions were coming true!

And you are right Merry. It was Gandalf himself who told Denethor the following about Boromir and the Ring in "The Siege of Gondor":

"In no case would Boromir have brought it to you. He is dead, and died well; may he sleep in peace! Yet you deceive yourself. He would have stretched out his hand to this thing, and taking it he would have fallen. He would have kept it for his own, and when he returned you would not have known your son."

[bruce rerek]

One cannot deny that it was the pride of Denethor that was the root of his fall. Yet, one cannot find him a tragic figure. He had lost his wife, his beloved son, and a seemingly invincible evil that would eventually destroy all that he known and loved. As noble as he was, he was a man. Grief and despair makes the night longer and the thoughts bleak. "Night changes many thoughts."
I do not think we have discussed the palantiri as mitigated information much like how we know the world through the media. Is it not the case that the many nights locked away seeking truth through the palantir bent Denethor to despair, and when consul was given by Gandalf, his mind had be convinced and supervened by Sauron?

[Merry]

bruce, you say that 'one cannot find him a tragic figure'. I think you make a good argument FOR finding him a tragic figure, in the classic Shakespearean sense. Is that what you meant to say?

[bruce rerek]

oops, yes I meant that but forgot one simple word - but.

[Iolanthe]

Ah! Easily done, Bruce .

It's easy to read about Denethor and forget how much he deserves our pity. Your summary of his losses and his fears show what a terrible position he was in. Add to that his pride and will. Plus his hopes for his line to continue ruling Gondor smashed by the loss of Boromir, his distrust of Faramir and the rumours of Aragorn. No wonder he was losing his wits and easily misled.

Your comment about the Palantir and the media is very interesting. There is a huge difference between being shown something that appears as a fact and knowing the truth. In both cases you are being presented with something filtered, a partial glimpse. If you don't know the context, or aren't shown the context then even what appears to be real can be a lie.

Poor Denethor.