The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:44 pm

The world skewed, or as an approximation is the core of what I wish discuss. What the palantir displays, is a best, a secondary reality. The original intention was much like our media today. We depend on news and wire services that often act more like businesses that sell content, and not necessarily information. I am often reminded how the professor hated the intrusion of the radio in the pub, that authentic information of the world comes from interpersonal relationships.
Thoughts?

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:42 pm

I've been reading about the Palantir again in the Unfinished Tales. Tolkien writes about Denethor believing the Arnor-stone was his by right (Tolkien's italics). He could resist Sauron while using the stone (although he could still be misled) because of his strength of will and because the stones were 'amenable to legitimate users'. As Steward he was a legitimate user, whereas Saruman 'fell under the dominion of Sauron' through using the stone. Tolkien is also careful to point out that Denethor was 'strengthened, even against Sauron himself' because he was a legitimate user. But while steadfastly opposing Sauron he came to believe his victory was inevitable and fell into despair. I know most of you already know this, but I think it's interesting that both Denethor and Saruman come to believe in Sauron's victory through using the stones, but for completely different reasons.

Saruman is weakened (as he is not a legitimate user) and he becomes a follower of Sauron, desiring his victory and what it will bring him. Denethor is strengthened (as a legitimate user) and never gives his will over to Sauron, but he also sees only Sauron's victory and utterly despairs. Sauron cannot dominate him (like Sauruman) but he can mislead him.

Tolkien also says that Denethor 'maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son.'

Another very interesting point, which follows other conversations on this thread, is the effect jealousy of Thorongil (Aragorn) and hostility towards Gandalf (to whom his father 'paid much attention') had on his use of the stone. Tolkien writes that Denethor desired to 'surpass these 'usurpers' in knowledge and information, and also if possible to keep an eye on them when they were elsewhere.'

Fascinating!!!!

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:05 pm

This is great research, Iolanthe--thanks! I never thought to consider whether Saruman might be a victim in this.

librislove · Post by **librislove** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:33 am

It's a fascinating distinction Tolkien makes concerning the use of the palantir by Saruman and Denethor. Saruman finds himself dominated by Sauron, who captures him through the palantir he has no right to wield, but perhaps also by exploiting Saruman's own ambitions (Sauron likes to work through the weaknesses of his victims) On the other hand, Denethor has the right to use the palantir, and for awhile derives both insight and strength from it, yet in the end, for all his strength and his right, he too is destroyed by it, for he sees in it only what his personality allows him to see, a personality which is drawn to suspicion, jealousy, and ultimately despair.He can see and interpret no hope in what it shows. How Sauron must have laughed as Denethor interpreted the gifts of the palantir only in a negative light, and so lost control of it after all, and nearly destroyed his city and his house in his blindness. And there are those who maintain this is a fairy story for children?

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:09 pm

Contrasted to the house of Denethor, the Agamemnon family would seem almost functional. Then again there are the Lomans, or for that matter the Osborns, talk about a pack of wack-a-loons!

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:19 pm

We should consult the OED: this might be the first recorded use of 'wack-a-loons'!

I would venture to guess, in your spirit, bruce, that most families, when faced with the devastation and hopelessness of this one, would not have fared any better.

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:21 pm

Sadly, all too true.
But compared to the Jodes, from Grapes of Wrath, and from personal experiences, those who have cherished one another than material possessions seem to fare better.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:44 pm

We should have followed the calendar: yesterday the Fellowship left Rivendell!

Riv Res · Post by **Riv Res** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:24 am

Merry wrote:We should have followed the calendar: yesterday the Fellowship left Rivendell!

Merry, I have started posting the TA dates at the top of the Forum Index Page once more.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:00 am

Great!

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:15 pm

Ya gotta love this:

http://missedmanners.wordpress.com/2008 ... or-fields/

Warning: there is some typically unimaginative smutty language here, but there is also some wonderfully atypical imaginative stuff!

P.S. It snowed here in the Middle-west last night, which reminded me that the Fellowship is stuck on Caradhras on this date.

marbretherese · Post by **marbretherese** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:29 pm

Thanks for this, Merry, it had me in stitches LOL I can't decide which I like best - the White Tree of Gondor or Grond. But I'll never be able to look a pretzel in the same way again . . . .!

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:55 pm

He he! I liked the fell beast the best, I think.

Philipa · Post by **Philipa** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:07 pm

I remember the Helm's Deep project. I'm glad to know he ventured to do this scene too.

Thanks merry.

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:42 pm

That's just priceless, and very tasty

. Those white pretzels are hilarious.