The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:04 pm

I particularly liked this comment:

Before we get to this year’s offering however, I figured I’d remark on the most common comment from last year: “You guys have way too much time on your hands.” Not really, but we certainly found the time. All told this year’s project took about seven days of off and on work. I guess we’re just better at turning off the TV than most. Oh, and also, if you’re not using your free time to do stuff like this, what XXX XXXX else are you doing with it?

The TV comment made me want to cheer!

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:03 pm

Me, too, Lindariel. There is a lot in the commentary to make one smile. They've done a G-rated version of the commentary, too, suitable for children to read.

I liked the line about 'constructed by the ancient men of the west, who are actually me and my little brother. . .'!

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:28 pm

Thanks for the new banner reminding us of the Mirror of Galadriel today! Things are kind of slow while our heroes are in Lothlorien for this stretch. Do you think that Tolkien purposely put the Mirror and Gandalf's return to life on St. Valentine's Day in the same way he made the Fellowship leave Rivendell on Christmas?

Philipa · Post by **Philipa** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:03 pm

Merry wrote:Do you think that Tolkien purposely put the Mirror and Gandalf's return to life on St. Valentine's Day in the same way he made the Fellowship leave Rivendell on Christmas?

I'd suppose it would depend if Valentine's Day existed when the novel was written.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:51 am

Well, I know that Valentines were sent during Victorian times, but the saint's feast day was surely in place even well before that.

marbretherese · Post by **marbretherese** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:03 pm

Merry wrote:Do you think that Tolkien purposely put the Mirror and Gandalf's return to life on St. Valentine's Day in the same way he made the Fellowship leave Rivendell on Christmas?

The more I find out about Tolkien the less I believe that anything he wrote was coincidence . . . .

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:52 pm

I wonder - St Valentine seems to be one of those saints like Saint George who is more legend than fact.

Here's a snippet from Wikipedia:

The name "Valentine" does not occur in the earliest list of Roman martyrs, which was compiled by the Chronographer of 354. The feast of St. Valentine was first established in 496 by Pope Gelasius I, who included Valentine among those "... whose names are justly reverenced among men, but whose acts are known only to God." As Gelasius implied, nothing was known, even then, about the lives of any of these martyrs. The Saint Valentine that appears in various martyrologies in connection with 14 February is described either as:

* A priest in Rome
* A bishop of Interamna (modern Terni)
* A martyr in the Roman province of Africa

I even looked up the feat of Lupercalia (which was 'overlayed' by St Valentine's Day) and which was celebrated on 13-15th Feb and nothing looks promising. Just rituals to purify and drive evil spirits from Rome.

Perhaps, for once, it really is coincidence!

Interestingly, St Valentine is the patron saint of Bee Keepers.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:37 pm

I didn't know about the bee keepers, Iolanthe! Nice!

But I think that whether St. Valentine was fact or legend, JRRT would probably have celebrated the day as a secular and a religious holiday. My memory is that the Catholic Church didn't start weeding out the 'legend' saints (like St. Christopher, a big crowd favorite!) until after Vatican II, which occured in the 1960s.

ETA: It's true, though, that in the Catholic Church, Feb 14 is the feast of Sts. Cyril and Methodius (whoever the heck they were!). I'll see if I can find out over the weekend if that was the case in Tolkien's day.

marbretherese · Post by **marbretherese** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:23 pm

Merry wrote:My memory is that the Catholic Church didn't start weeding out the 'legend' saints (like St. Christopher, a big crowd favorite!) until after Vatican II, which occured in the 1960s.

That's right, Merry - as a child I remember being v. indignant on St Christopher's behalf!

When I was researching my essay on names I found that the histories of many of the saints are extremely confused - St Meriadoc is variously placed in the 4th, 7th and 14th centuries, for example - so a little confusion around the origins of St Valentine isn't surprising.

I'm sticking with my "no coincidence" theory. Tolkien, as we know, had a well developed romantic streak and I like Merry's suggestion that he would have celebrated 14th February in both ways!

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:56 pm

I think that, like Gimli, he was in love with Galadriel--courtly love, of course! Many of the stories of the saints were handed down by oral tradition, as were the myths and fairy tales, etc. So it's not surrising that they are a little hazy. But that kind of thing would have been right up Tolkien's alley!

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:07 pm

Woo hoo! It's March in Middle-earth, which means lots of action, as our head banner shows us. Those of you who haven't visited the Great Years Calendar should really give it a look; there's lots to learn there!

Philipa · Post by **Philipa** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:11 pm

The Dead Marshes....shivers.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:07 pm

Philipa,

!

As I was rereading the banner title and the events for March 1, it strikes me that Faramir leaving on an 'errand' to Ithilien is strange language. Sounds like he's picking up his dry cleaning or taking a package to the post office! But of course, Tolkien's use of language must be taken as de facto better than mine, right? So I guess this word is related to 'errantry', as in what knight's do, right?

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:39 pm

That must be it, Merry. Errand has become a word for quite trivial things but originally it must have had courtly connotations. It's a Middle English word so Tolkien would have liked it. It only originally referred to a short journey done on behalf of someone else but nowadays we often say 'I must run an errand' for jobs we do for ourselves. This is from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:

Middle English erend message, business, from Old English ǣrend; akin to Old High German ārunti message

Date: before 12th century

1archaic a: an oral message entrusted to a person b: embassy, mission
2 a: a short trip taken to attend to some business often for another 'was on an errand for his mother' b: the object or purpose of such a trip

Philipa · Post by **Philipa** » Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:24 pm

Merry wrote:So I guess this word is related to 'errantry', as in what knight's do, right?

Sorry Merry I didn't reply, but it seems Iolanthe has found a good source for your answer. We do seem to trivialize words into commonality don't we. I bet we could come up with more from the english langauge too.