Discussing The Hobbit

marbretherese · Post by **marbretherese** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:42 pm

I'd prefer to wait, too. No need to be hasty!

Riv Res · Post by **Riv Res** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:48 pm

It seems to be consensus to do this on the actual dates and that sounds great. Here's the Fonstad calendar so that we have some idea what to look forward to. I will assign dates to participants in rotation if that is OK with everyone.

TA 2941

April 25: Gandalf visits Bilbo at Bag End.

April 26: Wednesday. The unexpected party.

April 27: Thorin and Company ride out of Hobbiton at 11:00 am.

May 29: The Company Crosses the River and are captured by the Trolls.

June 4: They ford the Bruinen and reach Rivendell at dusk.

Midyear’s Day (Loëndë - June 22): The company leaves Rivendell.

June 26: Monday. They are captured by the Goblins during the night.

July 19: Thursday. Gandalf and the Dwarves escape. Bilbo finds the Ring, meets Gollum, escapes. The company is trapped by wolves and rescued by eagles.

July 20: They fly to the Carrock and reach Beorn’s in midafternoon.

July 22: They ride out from Beorn’s in early afternoon.

July 25: Gandalf departs with ponies at the west edge of Mirkwood.

August 16: The company crosses the Enchanted Stream. Bombur falls into a trance.

August 22: They leave the path at night.

August 23: Before dawn Thorin is captured by the Wood-elves, and the other Dwarves by giant spiders. Bilbo rescues the Dwarves.

August 24: At dusk the Dwarves are captured by Wood-elves and taken to the Elvenking’s Halls.

September 21: The company escapes the Elvenking in the afternoon and reaches the huts of the Raft-men at dusk.

September 22: They reach Lake-town just after sunset.

October 9: The company departs Lake-town by boat.

October 12: They leave the river and ride to the Lonely Mountain.

October 14: The camp is moved to the Western Valley.

October 19: Bilbo discovers the hidden path. The camp is moved to the hidden bay.

October 30: Durin’s Day. The Secret Door is opened at dusk. Bilbo visits Smaug and returns to the Dwarves at midnight.

November 1: Bilbo returns to Smaug’s chamber in the afternoon. In the evening Smaug smashes the door, attacks Lake-town, and is killed.

November 2: Goblins, Beorn and Gandalf hear of Smaug’s death.

November 3: Elvenking’s host leaves Mirkwood. Thorin hears news.

November 4: Elves turn toward Lake-town.

November 6: Elves reach Lake-town. Dáin receives summons.

November 12: Elves reach Lake-man pass to the north and end of Long Lake.

November 15: The joint forces reach Dale at dusk.

November 16: Lonely Mountain is besieged.

November 22: Bilbo gives the Arkenstone to the Elvenking and Bard.

November 23: Dáin arrives in early morning. The Battle of Five Armies. Thorin and Bolg slain.

November 27: Gandalf, Bilbo, and Beorn leave Lonely Mountain.

December 30: They arrive at Beorn’s and stay intil spring.

TA 2942

May 1: Gandalf and Bilbo reach Rivendell.

May 8: They leave for Hobbiton which they reach on June.

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:02 pm

There's more than I thought

. That should keep us busy.

elentarivarda · Post by **elentarivarda** » Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:01 pm

Awesome!

The rotation things sounds good to me Riv!

lyanness · Post by **lyanness** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:16 pm

I'm quite disappointed that the end of the book has come so suddenly. I felt as though the scene on the mountain - when Thorin finally decided to aid the fighting, and when the eagles and Beorn arrived - could have been stretched just a little longer. I do realise that it is a book meant for children, hence the Professor chose not to linger in a place of violence, but, as an adult, the lingering would have been appreciated. It felt as though the buildup to the battle took forever, and in an instant it was over with no real account of what happened. Indeed, I felt like Bilbo who suffered a concussion and had almost no idea what was going on. I guessed that the good guys had won (hooray!), but I am a person that is quite fond of details, and details were quite lacking in this case. Oh well. I suppose that the rest of the book makes up for the lack of detail in the end. Altogether a great read, and I look forward to the time when I read it again.

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:21 pm

I think you are right about why there isn't too much detail, lyanness. He covers the bones of what happened but draws a veil over anything that would disturb young readers (though young readers nowadays would be much less disturbed). It's more like reading a report than actually being there with a character and living it with them although we see some of it through Bilbo's eyes. We aren't really back with the real flow of events until after it's over.

Then, having avoided too much detail in the fight, Tolkien lands a heavy blow on his young readers with Thorin's death. I think it's a really brave move on his part and recognises that even young readers aren't fooled by 'and so they all lived happily ever after'. I think Tokien's insticts that this is more important to the story is spot on and it lifts the tale out of the usual children's story onto another level.

Glad you've enjoyed it! What's next on your reading list?

Philipa · Post by **Philipa** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:35 pm

Iolanthe wrote:It's more like reading a report than actually being there with a character and living it with them although we see some of it through Bilbo's eyes. We aren't really back with the real flow of events until after it's over.

Well that's just it isn't it? Bilbo only sees a fraction of what is happening so it must be relayed in that manner unless you have much conversation from other characters. And what child is going to want to wade through war talk unless you are really into strategies and the like. So I think for what it is keeping the story moving was necessary. Just my opinion of course.

lyanness · Post by **lyanness** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:40 pm

Iolanthe wrote:Glad you've enjoyed it! What's next on your reading list?

I've finished the children of Hurin. Quite interesting, disturbing, intriguing, fascinating and shocking. So intriguing, it took me an evening to finish - I just couldn't put it down. Taking a break from Tolkien, reading some Stephan King and Dean R. Koontz (3 books each), then going to decide which of my Tolkien books I'm going to read next.

Philipa · Post by **Philipa** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:56 pm

I have started rereading the Hobbit this past week. But this time around (it's my forth time) I decided to read the Houghton Mifflin's Annotated version by Douglas A. Anderson. It's been quite interesting reading about it's origins and publishing stories.

One fun fact I've stumbled upon is the origins of Gandalf. It was fun to find that Gandalf's name was given to Thorin and the wizard's name was to be Bladorthin. But of course this changed and very early on. But the vision of Gandalf came from this Christmas post card entitled "Der Berggeist" painted by Josef Madlener.

Humphrey Carpenter ( you scholars know him

) wrote Tolkien had bought the postcard while in Switzerland and had "preserved this postcard carefully, and long afterwards he wrote on the paper cover in which he kept it: "Origin of Gandalf." Although Carpenter's story is flawed on several points it seems this part of the story could be true.

The nature loving wanderer seems to fit Tolkien's interest in the ancient and the natural world connection. Fun stuff yes?

Riv Res · Post by **Riv Res** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:21 pm

Fascinating Philipa. OK...I shall also be forced to finally read my copy of the Annotated Hobbit.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:40 am

I've been reading this, too! There's some great stuff in there.

Philipa · Post by **Philipa** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:38 pm

It's worth the read of notes in there for sure. Some notes are just changing words in sentences but some have more meatier information. In any course, it's fun to re-read this again.

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:29 pm

How funny - I'd ordered it just a couple of weeks ago and it's just arrived! So I'll be reading it too

. I thought I'd better as we are going to do a Hobbit Calendar

.

I think the painting that inspired Tolkien is very interesting - you can see it as a starting point but in the end his Gandalf became so much more. 'Der Berggeist' is a 'Mountain Spirit'. That already seems more that what we think of a as Wizard. I wonder how long it was before Tolkien knew that Gandalf was a Maiar and not just a wize old man with special magic powers? And Mountain Spirit seems more like Bombadil - a spirit of place, tied to nature.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:18 pm

I'm so excited to be starting the Hobbit Calendar, both as a writer and as a reader! Maybe we can put our comments about the Calendar here.

I'm struck today by the repetition of themes between the Unexpected Party and the long expected party in LOTR. Obviously, Tolkien wanted a parallel. But as it is spring where I am (albeit a cold one--they are threatening snow tomorrow!), I'm thinking about why Tolkien made Bilbo's journey in the spring and Frodo's in the fall. Many readers have commented on LOTR being a fallish book, and we want to read it in the fall. But I read yesterday (at VW!) that GDT is thinking of Hobbit having a different 'palette', more 'golden-hued', as if these events occurred in the youth of Middle-earth. I'll be interested to see if I can detect these hues as I read the book again. It seems to me that we are still in the Third Age, hardly the golden days of Middle-earth. But it may also be the case that the rise of Sauron darkens things up a bit.

Riv Res · Post by **Riv Res** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:39 pm

Merry, we are having one of our spring snows here in Denver as well. Tomorrow, however, is predicted to be 70 degrees F.

I agree that the seasonal feel is a bit different in the two tales, but I think Tolkien also sets a decidedly different tone in each. Although he is stalking a dragon, I have always felt that Bilbo was setting out on a marvelous adventure. It was even lighthearted at times with the unexpected party and the way that Tolkien wrote the suspicions and mistrusts between hobbit and dwarves at times. In LOTR, however, the instant that Frodo and Co encounter the first Black Rider, there is a sense of dread that permeates the rest of the tale. I do not feel that in The Hobbit and I know it is by design...call it Tolkien's teaser.

Bilbo's Rivendell is full of wonder, laughter and warmth, Frodo's Rivendell is a refuge from the dread. Such is the scope of the Tolkien work that the two stories indeed diverge geographically at Rivendell. Bilbo and Co continue north by east to Erebor, and the Fellowship journeys south by west on their quest.

Both stories are about quests, and journeys and adventures. That is another striking parallel. I think that the biggest contrast however, is the ending of each. The Hobbit quite naturally left you wondering what Bilbo would be up to next, and the ending of LOTR was indeed (at least for me) the End. The more that I think about it, the more it comes to me that this is perhaps the reason that Tolkien himself had such a tough time conceiving of a sequel to LOTR even though his publisher and the readers were clamoring for it. The story had been told and reached it's utter end.

It is also interesting to me that although Bilbo is there to introduce us to the story in LOTR, it is left to Frodo to fulfill that quest. Such is the enormous time span that Tolkien created.

Perhaps it is just me, but nowadays as I re-read The Hobbit, it doesn't seem quite as lighthearted and cheery as the first reading when I was ignorant of all the ramifications and meanings and hints that Tolkien included.