The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

[Merry]

'Proverbiality': great word! I wonder if it is in the OED.

Thanks, Lindariel! The last quote comes closest to what I was looking for, I think, although I can't remember where that is, either. I found another one in 'The Last Debate': Gimli, talking about how Aragorn brought the Dead to battle, said, "Strange and wonderful I thought it that the designs of Mordor should be overthrown by such wraiths of fear and darkness. With its own weapons was it worsted!"

[Iolanthe]

Wow - there are so many allusions to this that there is a great essay in there somewhere....Merry?

[Merry]

I'm up to my eyeballs in three-page essays to grade! Maybe this summer. It's a wonderful theme.

[Iolanthe]

We can wait . I've been writing my next essay for our essay thread for three months . When I say writing, I mean ignoring it completely after making a good start .

[Merry]

Interesting definition of 'writing', Iolanthe! I myself am a writer in a similar mode.

[Iolanthe]

It works for me....

[Iolanthe]

I'm re-reading LotR and have a few odd observations that I've been meaning to post as I've gone along and haven't...

I'm struck more than ever how important Merry is in the early chapters of FotR. He's the main organiser, always taking charge, leading the way. He's the one Strider turns to most in the early stages of their journey to Rivendell.

Gandalf talking about the Ring to Frodo at Bag End:

A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but it's keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care - and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing and really done it.

What hope for Frodo, being expected to no only abandon it but destroy it? No wonder he couldn't do it. After reading this I'm wondering why Gandalf ever thought that he could. His entire trust must have been in fate - 'Bilbo was meant to find the Ring' is a little further down the page - relying on an intervention he couldn't forsee, expecting the almost impossible to happen (which, of course, it did). He certainly knew the act of destroying it was beyond anyone, including Frodo.

'What a pity that Bilbo did not destroy that vile creature, when he had a chance!' The main thing that separates Gollum from Bilbo is that Gollum started the ownership of the Ring with a murder. Pity not only allows Gollum to 'accidentally' achieve what Frodo couldn't but prevents Bilbo from being another Gollum. If he had killed Gollum all would have been lost for Bilbo, never mind what would have happened to the Ring.

It's amazing just how much decision making Gandalf leaves to Frodo. He doesn't once tell him in the opening chapters when to leave or where to go, even though Frodo clearly needs help with all of it. I get the feeling that Gandalf is afraid to jinx things if he doesn't leave it entirely to the one person who was 'meant' to have the Ring. Sort of trusting to Frodo's luck rather than his wisdom and experience. He suggests, of course, saying - for example - that Rivendell would be a good choice, but he never once says 'this is what we're going to do'. As for timing all he does is nudge.

Later on, when Frodo meets Gildor and the elves and asks for advice he is told

'Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill.'

[marbretherese]

I'm struck more than ever how important Merry is in the early chapters of FotR. He's the main organiser, always taking charge, leading the way. He's the one Strider turns to most in the early stages of their journey to Rivendell.

When I researched my 'Pippin' essay I was staggered by how much Merry actually does. There's a maturity and capability about him which contrasts sharply with Pippin's immaturity at the start of LoTR. That's why I try not to think of them as 'Mippin' - they are two distinct characters. Merry also plays a part in Faramir's courtship of Éowyn - he's good at helping things along!

[Lindariel]

I am particularly struck by how carefully The Professor chose to word the task that Frodo ultimately undertakes. In PJ's movie version, Elrond states to the Council that the Ring must be taken to Mordor and cast into the Fires of Mount Doom -- "One of you must do this." However, The Professor very cleverly NEVER lays that particular responsibility on Frodo's shoulders. Here are the various ways in which the actual Quest is described in "The Council of Elrond" and "The Ring Goes South":

Elrond: Now at this last we must take the hard road, a road unforeseen. There lies our hope, if hope it be. To walk into peril -- to Mordor. We must send the Ring to the Fire . . . . The road must be trod, but it will be very hard. And neither strength nor wisdom will carry us far upon it. This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong.

Frodo: I will take the Ring . . . though I do not know the way.

Elrond: If I understand aright all that I have heard . . . I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo; and that if you do not find a way, no one will.

Elrond: Do you hold to your word, Frodo, that you will be the Ring-bearer?

Elrond: This is my last word . . . . The Ring-bearer is setting out on the Quest of Mount Doom. On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need.

Much is made of the fact that Frodo himself did not actually cast the Ring into Mount Doom -- that the destruction of the Ring happened almost though chance -- or through Divine intervention -- when Gollum violently took the Ring and then fell into the Cracks of Doom. The Professor himself wrote a great length in Letters #181, 191, and 192, about the inevitability of Frodo's "failure," that he "apostacized", and that the inevitability of his failure was established practically at the beginning of the story. He also notes that Frodo is nonetheless honored for his efforts because he undertook the impossible task voluntarily and had "done all that was within his utmost physical and mental strength to do." In Letter #191, The Professor also beautifully invokes what he refers to as "the mysterious last petitions in the Lord's Prayer: Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. A petition against something that cannot happen is unmeaning. There exists the possibility of being placed in positions beyond one's power."

However, if you look carefully at the words above, Frodo is NEVER charged with actually destroying the Ring, and he NEVER promises to do so. He is charged with "finding the way" and safeguarding the Ring -- both of which he does. All he promises to do is to "take the Ring," and he is given the title "Ring-bearer," NOT "Ring-destroyer." So, while The Professor does indeed set Frodo up for failure in this story, through his very careful language, he actually provides Frodo with an "out."

This builds in very nicely with the observation Iolanthe made above, that the Ring's keeper never abandons it. I really do believe that the Wise -- Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel -- never expected Frodo to actually destroy the Ring himself. In fact, they knew it would be completely impossible for him to do so. He could not bear to even throw the thing into the fireplace in his own home! What they hoped is that Frodo would somehow manage to at least bring the Ring to Mount Doom, and from there, it was completely an act of faith -- that Providence would intervene, and that through the grace of Eru Iluvatar, the impossible would be accomplished.

[Merry]

This is great! There is always something new to know about LOTR!

'Mippin' really is undeserved, isn't it? I think the term got started at WRoR, and it is really making fun of ourselves who, as first time readers, might have rushed through the salient differences between Merry and Pippin in order to find out what happens to Aragorn! Tut tut--so superficial!

Great insights into Frodo's role and Gandalf's faith. I think Tolkien was well aware of the terrible things men and women do when they are in terrible situations, but if anyone can ever be forgiven for anything, Frodo can be forgiven. I'm away from my books, but I think somewhere in the letters, he writes about having to send Frodo to the Blessed Isles so that he can be healed of his own sense of failure.

I also think Tolkien sets up the 'wisdom of the world', personified in people like Saruman and Sauron, versus simple faith, hope, and charity. As different as Gandalf is from Sam in terms of background and natural endowments, they both personify the three theological virtues.

[Iolanthe]

Lots of great thoughts here to chew on as I proceed through the book. Re-reading it I always rediscover things as though I'd never read them in the first place. The book is so dense with meaning it's always a new journey of discovery.

I really like the distinction that you've picked out, Lindariel, between Ring-Bearer and Ring-Destroyer. You are quite right, Frodo is never actually charged with destroying it himself, just getting it there. Why it should startle me so much that no one (including Gandalf) expected him to be able to destroy it, I don't know. I think the subtlety somehow got lost somewhere in my brain between my last reading and this one. The charge laid on him is very compassionate and very trusting that there is Good in the world working with Frodo. No wonder all the wise were careful not to hinder what seems, on the surface, a crazy plan (a Hobbit going to Mordor) with more carefully intellectualised ideas. The 'Wisdom of the World', just as you've said, Merry.

I think that the LotR films have gone a long way to creating 'Mippin'. They do have distinct personalities in it but are both immature and nowhere near as clearly drawn as in the book. Merry is clearly the leader of the expedition as far as Rivendell. He organises Frodo's move, fends off his relatives, advises, makes decisions, has organised the 'conspiracy' that pretty much saves Frodo (how far would he have got?), knows the Old Forest, in fact leads the way. I think he could equally have gone all the way to Mordor with Frodo, if Sam had fallen by the way.

Frodo is never, in the book, an obvious leader - although he makes all the important decisions it's not the quite same thing. Other's lead the way for him - Gildor's Elves, Merry, Strider, Gandalf, Strider again, Sam and ultimately Gollum. The traditional 'leadership role' of decision making and 'leading the way' is split by Tolkien between Frodo and all these other characters so that Frodo never emerges as the usual book hero, but something hugely more complex, so at times he can be passive, sometimes merely carrying the Ring with no energy for anything else, sometimes forceful.

[Merry]

Yes! I think I remember reading somewhere that PJ made Frodo more of a leader in the movies--I guess movies must have stars. But you're right--it's not so in the books.

[Iolanthe]

I've reached the breaking of the Fellowship at Parth Galen in my re-reading and I'm struck again by how scary this whole episode is. First time readers must expect the Fellowship to go on but it's in complete disarray. Boromir's dead, Aragorn makes what initially appear to be a series of bad decisions and it's clear that nothing that follows is going to be anything like the book so far. It must have been even more disconcerting for original readers who were left hanging for a year wondering what was happening!

Two things struck me afresh:

It's only really after they all go off in their own directions that we truly get to know all the characters. There's just so many of them up to that point, chipping in here and there depending on what's happening, and characters like the Hobbits that we got to know in the opening chapters have slipped back. But now they all have their chapters and we get to spend more quality time with the Three Runners, Merry and Pippin, and Frodo and Sam. It seems to me that this is when they really all come forward.

Poor Aragorn is torn between Gondor and Mordor all the way down the Anduin and in the end it was all for nought as he dosen't directly get to go to either. Events are completely out of his hands. While they are in pursuit of the Uruk-hai he says that

'Since we passed through the Argonath my choices have gone amiss.' He fell silent, gazing north and west into the gathering night for a long while.

'Since we passed thorugh the Argonath' - in fact ever since he saw the images of the Kings of old that he longed so much to see. I think this long silence is about more than a few wrong decisions. The Argonath was an emotional turning point for him and now it all seems to be turning to dust - a returning King who can't now seem to put a foot right. He must be wondering if he's up to the job, if it's really his Fate to save Gondor, become King and marry Arwen. He's not even able to complete the quest of the Ring which, he points out after the above, is:

'...the true Quest. Ours is but a small matter in the great deeds of this time.'

He really is in the dumps, isn't he?

[librislove]

Great thoughts, Iolanthe! Indeed, I think this was a darker time for Aragorn than any other in many ways--after these days we have a series of personal triumphs for him beginning with the meeting with Eomer in which even his friends see him transformed into a momentary semblance of the king to be, right through Helm's Deep, the Palantir, the Paths of the Dead, and finally the arrival at Minas Tirith and the revelation of the healer-king. None of these are easy--some are horrifying, but they reinforce his own destiny one after the other for him. That destiny is not certain until the end, but the road to it is laid out for him by these experiences, most especially the palantir. (All of this is IMHO, of course )

[Iolanthe]

Yes - he's on very much the right path from this point onwards but has no way of knowing it. It's neither of the roads he anticipated, he's not protecting Frodo or immediately fullfilling Boromir's dying request to 'Go to Minas Tirith'. But the one thing he is doing is being true to himself and he's doing the right thing in trying to rescue Merry and Pippin. It's one of those cases where not even the Wise can forsee what's happening.