Discussing The Hobbit

[Philipa]

Yes--but that was an involuntary absence he did not intend.

That's not what I meant Librislove. We know Gandalf did not intend to become a prisoner but did Gandalf say to Frodo he was going to Sauruman before he left in the spring?

[librislove]

No, you are right there--he just said he would go south to get news, not that he was going to Saruman. But still, it seems more info than the Dwarves and Bilbo ever got. . . .

[Iolanthe]

That's right, he explains that he has to leave but the fact that he doesn't return when he promised isn't explained until Rivendell. Frodo, of course, knows something is wrong because he knows when to expect him. But his comings and goings in The Hobbit are entirely different. As Riv has said, he's not the fully fledged Gandalf we know and love and I also get the feeling that in The Hobbit Tolkien just needed to get him out of the action so that Bilbo could take his place in the story.

In a way he does the same in LotR (but much more skillfully) by paving a way for adventures between Hobbiton and Rivendell, most of which Gandalf would have avoided, and letting us really feel how vulnerable the Hobbits are. It also paves the way for Strider .

[Merry]

Another great calendar post today, along with one of Allen Lee's best paintings! I think it's interesting that Tolkien has Gandalf not quite knowing his way into Rivendell. I guess he's working on the 'hidden valley' motif that enters into some mythologies: a wonderful place full of magic and beauty and lore that isn't open to everyone.

Let's support our calendar writers and their hard work by continuing to discuss their writing in this thread.

[Iolanthe]

Thanks Merry . I got all excited then remembered it was me .

I must admit I found Gandalf's difficulty in finding the path to Rivendell wierd when I read it. Another example of how far Tolkien still had to go in deciding who and what Gandalf really was. I can't imagine Gandalf the Grey of LotR struggling, as by that book it's clear that Gandalf must have been there often over hundreds of years!

Of course, in LotR our approach to Rivendell is entirely different - the elves are bringing them, first Gildor and then the elves that meet Frodo at the other side of the Ford and bear him to Elrond. And they are being pursued. So no chance of finding out if Aragorn had to look for white stones to find the Hidden Valley.

I love the fact that it can be hidden by the landscape - an apparent featureless stretch of moor leading to the mountains, but cut by ravines. I found it quite hard to imagine something so dramatic being so well concealed until I watched a television programme about China last week. They showed a very similar landscape - a seemingly featureless terrain leading to foothills and peaks, and then revealed stunning hidden ravines full of trees and an uninque ecosystem. Tolkien might never have been to China but the landscape really exists!

[Iolanthe]

Today is the longest day and I've been reading Librislove's new entry in our Hobbit Calendar. There's a couple of really interesting ideas there. Was Rivendell the bolthole that Tolkien longed for where he could refresh and renew himself? I often think that the Hall of Fire was a bit like a grand version of the cosy fireplace at The Eagle and Child where the Inklings met to tell their stories over a pint and a pipe.

And then there is this possibility:

One other thought: I cannot help but wonder, did Bilbo encounter an enchanting and comely, though probably solemn, child of Men - Estel, age ten, foster son of Elrond? If so, this was likely his first time meeting one of the "Big People." Was it here, in this place and time, that the long association between the family of Baggins and the House of Telcontar began? I like to think so. . . .

What if Bilbo and Aragorn knew each other from long ago?

[Lindariel]

Oh Iolanthe, I absolutely believe that Bilbo and little Estel DID meet during Thorin & Co.'s two-week stay in Rivendell. How could you possibly keep such an intelligent and curious child OUT of the Hall of Fire and AWAY from such interesting and unusual guests?

I do firmly believe that Bilbo's acquaintance with "The Dunadan" began during his two stays in Rivendell during the course of the story we know as The Hobbit. Of course, Bilbo didn't know the charming child Estel was "The Dunadan" at the time. Estel didn't know it himself! Imagine how thrilled Bilbo must have been to meet the adult Aragorn later when Bilbo returned to Rivendell for his "retirement" and to discover that this exemplary man, this King-to-be, "The Dunadan," was none other than the promising child he met so many years ago!

Those of you who were/are members of WRoR may recall reading my version of the unexpected meeting between Estel (and his little friend Lindariel) and Bilbo. As I recall, it involved the invention of the first water balloon. If anyone is interested, PM me, and I'll be happy to share!

[Iolanthe]

It's funny, but before Librislove's calendar entry it had never occurred to me. The affection between Bilbo and Aragorn is so strong it's lovely to think they had met that long ago. The idea of them comfortably creating poetry together all those years later is wonderful.

[Lindariel]

Iolanthe, there is also the possibility that Aragorn may have come across Bilbo during the years in which he was training with the Dunedain and helping them to guard the Shire. At this point, Bilbo had become "Mad Baggins" who took long walks to meet Elves and other "strange folk" on the borders of the Shire. One of those "strange folk" could certainly have been a certain young Ranger he'd first met as the child Estel in Rivendell. Who knows? Maybe when Bilbo finally left the Shire, he and his Dwarf companions might have been escorted for at least part of their journey to Rivendell by Rangers, including Aragorn.

[Iolanthe]

It had occured to me that Aragorn could have been one of those 'strange folk'. Thinking about it, Aragorn would have spent so little time at Rivendell between Bilbo's birthday disappearance and Frodo arriving at the Prancing Pony that Bilbo must have forged an earlier friendship with him. I wonder if the second Hobbit film will include 'Mad Baggins' and some of those meetings?

[Merry]

I've been trying to read The Hobbit along with our calendar, and one of the things I just noticed in this part of the book is all the warnings from everyone that Bilbo and the dwarves should not stray from the path once they enter Mirkwood. Tolkien even uses the device of using a bold font and capitalization when it is said. I guess we're meant to think that, of course, they WILL leave the path, right?

The dwarves don't seem to get much. They even discuss the possibility of taking Beorn's ponies into Mirkwood.

[Iolanthe]

How funny - I've been thinking the exact same thing reading those passages ready for my next Hobbit Calendar entry. It's clear that the emphasis is there to tell us that they absolutely WILL stray off the path and from that warning on we're just waiting for them to do it and to see what happens. Keeping to the path is also a common fairy story device where there is only one safe route through unknown terrors.

And those dwarves are maddening, aren't they? They are totally blinkered about everything but their goal. But, if I'm not careful, I'll be writing my entry here .

[elentarivarda]

I just came across this: The Hobbit restaurant It doesn't say anything about it being related to Tolkien's Hobbit...but the font they use is similar and the picture of the owners in the main room looks like it is designed to look like a Hobbit Pub.

The most striking thing is that it's a 7 course meal.

The Hobbit indeed!

[Merry]

I looked at the menus, elentarivarda--lots of food, which hobbits would like, but Tolkien would have thought the food was too fancy!

Thanks for the link!

[elentarivarda]

Agreed!

When I found it, I thought...now, why did they name it the Hobbit...it's a fine dining restaurant. "Hobbit" doesn't really bring up images of fancy things. They like simple pleasures!