Thanks Merry and librislove! Glad you liked these entries, as they were genuine labors of love, and I really enjoyed writing them.
I actually thought of one more parallel between The Hobbit and LOTR in Thorin's death scene, and I have added a short paragraph to my calendar entry reflecting this.
The Hobbit Calendar Project
-
Lindariel
- Posts: 1062
- Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:30 pm
- Location: The Hall of Fire, Imladris (otherwise known as Northern Virginia)
-
Iolanthe
- Uinen
- Posts: 2339
- Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:21 pm
- Location: Washing my hair in the Sundering Sea
.-
Iolanthe
- Uinen
- Posts: 2339
- Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:21 pm
- Location: Washing my hair in the Sundering Sea
Insert appropriate picture here!
November 27: Gandalf, Bilbo and Beorn leave Lonely Mountain
Bilbo is now ‘weary of his adventure’ and ‘aching in his bones’ for the homeward journey, but before he can start back to his comfy Hobbit hole there is business to attend to and farewells to be made. Firstly there is the question of the Dragon’s gold. Bard has received a 14th share of the treasure from Dain (who has dealt more justly with the treasure than the unfortunate Thorin) and now Bard wants to give Bilbo the richest reward of all out of the gifts he makes out of his share (though one wonders why Bilbo share isn’t coming directly from Dain, who only gives him a necklace). But Bilbo is ever the practical, down-to-earth Hobbit. Although much altered by his adventure one thing hasn’t changed. He isn’t seduced by the gold - too much is a trouble: ‘How on earth should I have got all that treasure home without war and murder all along the way, I don’t know’. In fact he’s relieved. Perhaps it’s as well the dwarves didn’t travel with the Sackville-Bagginses! Bilbo only accepts two small chests of silver and gold, as much as one sturdy pony can carry (not to mention the mithril coat – worth more than all the Shire, even though he didn’t know it – the Ring and Sting).
There is other business to finish. When parting with the Elvenking outside Mirkwood he doesn’t feel comfortable unless he recompenses him for all the food and drink he consumed while an invisible ‘Burglar’ in his halls. So he gives him Dain’s present of the silver and pearl necklace – ending up with nothing directly from the Dwarves at all except Thorin’s personal gift of the Mithril coat. The Elvenking calls him ‘Bilbo the Magnificent’ and names him ‘Elf-friend’, a high honour that only readers of the whole of Tolkien’s legendarium can appreciate – following in the footsteps of Hurin, Tuirin, Beren and the great men of Middle-earth history.
As well as sorting out the treasure and gifts there are goodbyes to be made. The farewell to the dwarves is made painful by the absence of Thorin (reconciled to Bilbo at the last) and Fili and Kili, Thorin’s nephews, who died protecting him. Bilbo bows in homage to the Lonely Mountain where they are buried. The dwarves part with him with fittingly formal words to mark the occasion: ‘If ever you visit us again, when our halls are made fair once more, then the feast shall indeed be splendid!’ But Bilbo, although being in the middle of grand events, is ever the Hobbit ‘If ever you are down my way, don’t wait to knock! Tea is at four; but any of you are welcome at any time!’ It’s these little touches of bathos that grounds Bilbo and The Hobbit and brings it back full circle to homely Hobbit Holes, tea and comfort. For Bilbo the Magnificent tea will ever be at four, no matter how many dragons have intervened.
And so Bilbo leaves the Lonely Mountain with honour, riding beside Gandalf and Beorn and behind the Elvenking himself.
November 27: Gandalf, Bilbo and Beorn leave Lonely Mountain
Bilbo is now ‘weary of his adventure’ and ‘aching in his bones’ for the homeward journey, but before he can start back to his comfy Hobbit hole there is business to attend to and farewells to be made. Firstly there is the question of the Dragon’s gold. Bard has received a 14th share of the treasure from Dain (who has dealt more justly with the treasure than the unfortunate Thorin) and now Bard wants to give Bilbo the richest reward of all out of the gifts he makes out of his share (though one wonders why Bilbo share isn’t coming directly from Dain, who only gives him a necklace). But Bilbo is ever the practical, down-to-earth Hobbit. Although much altered by his adventure one thing hasn’t changed. He isn’t seduced by the gold - too much is a trouble: ‘How on earth should I have got all that treasure home without war and murder all along the way, I don’t know’. In fact he’s relieved. Perhaps it’s as well the dwarves didn’t travel with the Sackville-Bagginses! Bilbo only accepts two small chests of silver and gold, as much as one sturdy pony can carry (not to mention the mithril coat – worth more than all the Shire, even though he didn’t know it – the Ring and Sting).
There is other business to finish. When parting with the Elvenking outside Mirkwood he doesn’t feel comfortable unless he recompenses him for all the food and drink he consumed while an invisible ‘Burglar’ in his halls. So he gives him Dain’s present of the silver and pearl necklace – ending up with nothing directly from the Dwarves at all except Thorin’s personal gift of the Mithril coat. The Elvenking calls him ‘Bilbo the Magnificent’ and names him ‘Elf-friend’, a high honour that only readers of the whole of Tolkien’s legendarium can appreciate – following in the footsteps of Hurin, Tuirin, Beren and the great men of Middle-earth history.
As well as sorting out the treasure and gifts there are goodbyes to be made. The farewell to the dwarves is made painful by the absence of Thorin (reconciled to Bilbo at the last) and Fili and Kili, Thorin’s nephews, who died protecting him. Bilbo bows in homage to the Lonely Mountain where they are buried. The dwarves part with him with fittingly formal words to mark the occasion: ‘If ever you visit us again, when our halls are made fair once more, then the feast shall indeed be splendid!’ But Bilbo, although being in the middle of grand events, is ever the Hobbit ‘If ever you are down my way, don’t wait to knock! Tea is at four; but any of you are welcome at any time!’ It’s these little touches of bathos that grounds Bilbo and The Hobbit and brings it back full circle to homely Hobbit Holes, tea and comfort. For Bilbo the Magnificent tea will ever be at four, no matter how many dragons have intervened.
And so Bilbo leaves the Lonely Mountain with honour, riding beside Gandalf and Beorn and behind the Elvenking himself.
Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
-
marbretherese
- Posts: 765
- Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 1:42 pm
- Location: Middle England
- Contact:
Just had a chance to catch up with the last few entries - I found them very moving! probably because this part of the tale deals with things which are, to me, fundamentally important in life (forgiveness, modesty. . . and tea at four o'clock 
).
)."Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back.
But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy."
http://www.marbretherese.com
http://marbretherese.blogspot.com/
But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy."
http://www.marbretherese.com
http://marbretherese.blogspot.com/
-
Lindariel
- Posts: 1062
- Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:30 pm
- Location: The Hall of Fire, Imladris (otherwise known as Northern Virginia)
Iolanthe, I never realized that the Dwarves did not give Bilbo a portion of the treasure! But you're right, Bilbo's silver and gold came from Bard's one-fourteenth share, and all we are told that Dain gave Bilbo was the necklace. Somehow, I suspect Dain probably gave him other gifts, but we were left uninformed. I just cannot imagine Bilbo giving away the ONLY gift he received from King Dain.
Nonetheless, the mithril vest and matching belt Thorin gave to Bilbo did turn out to be a gift "greater than the value of the whole Shire and everything in it." A kingly gift, indeed, and all the more valuable because it later saved Frodo's life on several occasions.
We should keep in mind that being named an "Elf-friend" somehow left the recipient of that title "marked" in some way. We should recall that Goldberry said to Frodo, "But I see you are an elf-friend; the light in your eyes and the ring in your voice tells it." I suspect some kind of magic passed from Thranduil to Bilbo on that day, marking Bilbo as an Elf-friend (Bilbo Elvellon) to any elf he may later encounter.
There are other parallels with LOTR here, for Frodo is named Elf-friend by Gildor Inglorien during their stay in Woodhall, and later Gimli is named a very special kind of Elf-friend by Galadriel, who calls him "Lock-Bearer." In Appendix A, Tolkien informs us, "He [Gimli] was named Elf-friend because of the great love that grew between him and Legolas, son of King Thranduil, and because of his reverence for the Lady Galadriel."
Nonetheless, the mithril vest and matching belt Thorin gave to Bilbo did turn out to be a gift "greater than the value of the whole Shire and everything in it." A kingly gift, indeed, and all the more valuable because it later saved Frodo's life on several occasions.
We should keep in mind that being named an "Elf-friend" somehow left the recipient of that title "marked" in some way. We should recall that Goldberry said to Frodo, "But I see you are an elf-friend; the light in your eyes and the ring in your voice tells it." I suspect some kind of magic passed from Thranduil to Bilbo on that day, marking Bilbo as an Elf-friend (Bilbo Elvellon) to any elf he may later encounter.
There are other parallels with LOTR here, for Frodo is named Elf-friend by Gildor Inglorien during their stay in Woodhall, and later Gimli is named a very special kind of Elf-friend by Galadriel, who calls him "Lock-Bearer." In Appendix A, Tolkien informs us, "He [Gimli] was named Elf-friend because of the great love that grew between him and Legolas, son of King Thranduil, and because of his reverence for the Lady Galadriel."
Lindariel 
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
-
Riv Res
- Manwë
- Posts: 2111
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:35 am
- Location: Walking the fields of the Pelennor with the King
-
Iolanthe
- Uinen
- Posts: 2339
- Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:21 pm
- Location: Washing my hair in the Sundering Sea
I was very puzzled by Bilbo's share coming out of Brand's part of the treasure (which is not so clearly written in the Hobbit where you have to read carefully to see that the 'he' referred to is Brand, but is much clearer in the draft version). Dain deals honorably with all the treasure ('Dain dealt his treasure well') and I'm surprised there is no mention of him giving Bilbo a share himself rather than leaving it up to Brand to do it. I would have though Tolkien would have made much of the dwarves honouring Bilbo, but it doesn't seem to happen other than his friends being sorry to see him go and Dain giving him the necklace - silver and pearls (not gold and diamonds or anything very swanky).
It's because, of course, Bilbo told Thorin that the Arkenstone was his 14th share and that he had chosen to give it to Brand and the Elvenking thereby doing himself out of any treasure at all. But they all agree that the old agreements no longer stand and you're left feeling that Bilbo is once again overlooked by the dwarves, who seem to feel that they had to abide by Thorin's words at the gate - even though he later repented of them. Or perhaps Dain, though noble, was more concerned about making allies than rewarding a Hobbit. But he's not overlooked by Brand who wanted him to be rewarded 'most richly of all'.
It's because, of course, Bilbo told Thorin that the Arkenstone was his 14th share and that he had chosen to give it to Brand and the Elvenking thereby doing himself out of any treasure at all. But they all agree that the old agreements no longer stand and you're left feeling that Bilbo is once again overlooked by the dwarves, who seem to feel that they had to abide by Thorin's words at the gate - even though he later repented of them. Or perhaps Dain, though noble, was more concerned about making allies than rewarding a Hobbit. But he's not overlooked by Brand who wanted him to be rewarded 'most richly of all'.
Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
-
Merry
- Varda
- Posts: 3263
- Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
- Location: Middle-west
-
librislove
- Posts: 151
- Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:19 am
- Location: western PA
I think Legolas is Sindarin for Greenleaf--perhaps he is called Legolas Greenleaf just to signify this, or to indicate he is from Mirkwood...or just to give him a surname or title like other characters have....maybe? 
Many live who deserve death; some die who deserve life--can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be so quick to deal out death in judgment. Even the wisest cannot see all ends.
-
Lindariel
- Posts: 1062
- Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:30 pm
- Location: The Hall of Fire, Imladris (otherwise known as Northern Virginia)
Iolanthe, when I go back and re-read that passage it IS somewhat murky which "he" Tolkien intended, whether Bard or Dain, unless one reads carefully. I believe heretofore I had always assumed it was Dain that gave Bilbo the gold and silver.
But I do agree that by both grammatical rules (the last use of the pronouns "he/him" referred to Bard) and the sense of the text we must assume that the speaker is Bard, not Dain. After all, Dain was not there when Thorin said, "For it [the Arkenstone] I will give one fourteenth share of the hoard in silver and gold, setting aside the gems; but that shall be accounted the promised share of this traitor, and with that reward he shall depart, and you can divide it as you will. He will get little enough, I doubt not," but Bard WAS.
The speaker says, "This treasure is as much yours as it is mine; though old agreements cannot stand, since so many have a claim in its winning and defence. Yet even though you were willing to lay aside all your claim, I should wish that the words of Thorin, of which he repented, should not prove true: that we should give you little. I would reward you most richly of all." This is clearly Bard wanting to make Thorin's assessment of the fairness and generosity of Men untrue.
But I do strongly feel that Dain and the Dwarves would indeed have wanted to reward Bilbo richly as well. I can think of several scenarios that would work with the Professor's text:
(1) Since Bilbo was encamped with the Men and Elves after the Battle of Five Armies, Bard was the first to have the opportunity to reward him. Our always practical Bilbo is quoted as not wanting any more than the two chests of silver and gold that Bard gave him -- after all, that's about all he could manage on the trip home without "war and murder all along the way." When Dain also wishes to reward him, Bilbo would certainly say that he already has a gracious plenty from Bard, thank you very much, plus Thorin had also given him the beautiful mithril shirt, belt, and helm. So Dain contents himself with giving Bilbo the necklace, and perhaps other small, valuable, and highly portable gifts(again, Tolkien doesn't say that the necklace is the ONLY thing Bilbo received from Dain), and probably also seeing to it that Bilbo was well provisioned for his trip back to the Shire.
(2) Dain and the dwarves also reward Bilbo most handsomely, but Tolkien neglects to tell us about it. He's trying to wrap up the tale at this point, and may have felt that the scene with Bard was sufficient to get across the point that Bilbo could have had a great deal of wealth out of the venture, but only chose to take the two chests of silver and gold.
(3) Dain and the dwarves, realizing that Bilbo is already overly encumbered with the reward he has received from Bard, elect to deliver their reward to him in installments over the ensuing years. This is certainly not an unreasonable assumption. After all, at the end of the tale, Bilbo is sitting in his parlor, reminiscing with Gandalf and Balin, so we know that he did receive at least one visit from one of the dwarves before the close of The Hobbit. At the beginning of LOTR we learn that Bilbo and Frodo had received visits from dwarves and shipments of goods over the years (remember the party toys that came from "the Mountain and from Dale"). The miller tells the Gaffer, "And look at the outlandish folk that visit him [Bilbo]: dwarves coming at night, and that old wandering conjuror Gandalf." There are even dwarves who come to help with Bilbo's eleventy-first birthday party.
But I do agree that by both grammatical rules (the last use of the pronouns "he/him" referred to Bard) and the sense of the text we must assume that the speaker is Bard, not Dain. After all, Dain was not there when Thorin said, "For it [the Arkenstone] I will give one fourteenth share of the hoard in silver and gold, setting aside the gems; but that shall be accounted the promised share of this traitor, and with that reward he shall depart, and you can divide it as you will. He will get little enough, I doubt not," but Bard WAS.
The speaker says, "This treasure is as much yours as it is mine; though old agreements cannot stand, since so many have a claim in its winning and defence. Yet even though you were willing to lay aside all your claim, I should wish that the words of Thorin, of which he repented, should not prove true: that we should give you little. I would reward you most richly of all." This is clearly Bard wanting to make Thorin's assessment of the fairness and generosity of Men untrue.
But I do strongly feel that Dain and the Dwarves would indeed have wanted to reward Bilbo richly as well. I can think of several scenarios that would work with the Professor's text:
(1) Since Bilbo was encamped with the Men and Elves after the Battle of Five Armies, Bard was the first to have the opportunity to reward him. Our always practical Bilbo is quoted as not wanting any more than the two chests of silver and gold that Bard gave him -- after all, that's about all he could manage on the trip home without "war and murder all along the way." When Dain also wishes to reward him, Bilbo would certainly say that he already has a gracious plenty from Bard, thank you very much, plus Thorin had also given him the beautiful mithril shirt, belt, and helm. So Dain contents himself with giving Bilbo the necklace, and perhaps other small, valuable, and highly portable gifts(again, Tolkien doesn't say that the necklace is the ONLY thing Bilbo received from Dain), and probably also seeing to it that Bilbo was well provisioned for his trip back to the Shire.
(2) Dain and the dwarves also reward Bilbo most handsomely, but Tolkien neglects to tell us about it. He's trying to wrap up the tale at this point, and may have felt that the scene with Bard was sufficient to get across the point that Bilbo could have had a great deal of wealth out of the venture, but only chose to take the two chests of silver and gold.
(3) Dain and the dwarves, realizing that Bilbo is already overly encumbered with the reward he has received from Bard, elect to deliver their reward to him in installments over the ensuing years. This is certainly not an unreasonable assumption. After all, at the end of the tale, Bilbo is sitting in his parlor, reminiscing with Gandalf and Balin, so we know that he did receive at least one visit from one of the dwarves before the close of The Hobbit. At the beginning of LOTR we learn that Bilbo and Frodo had received visits from dwarves and shipments of goods over the years (remember the party toys that came from "the Mountain and from Dale"). The miller tells the Gaffer, "And look at the outlandish folk that visit him [Bilbo]: dwarves coming at night, and that old wandering conjuror Gandalf." There are even dwarves who come to help with Bilbo's eleventy-first birthday party.
Lindariel
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
-
Riv Res
- Manwë
- Posts: 2111
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:35 am
- Location: Walking the fields of the Pelennor with the King
-
Iolanthe
- Uinen
- Posts: 2339
- Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:21 pm
- Location: Washing my hair in the Sundering Sea
Mmmm. I'm not so sure about the dwarves and the reward. It seems like a big thing for Tolkien to overlook or leave to our assumptions 
. It does read as though Dain thought it dealt with with Brand's share whether Tolkien intended it to or not, but clearly Bilbo still had a very good relationship with the dwarves who were frequent visitors and helpers. And Rateliff (The History of the Hobbit Part 2: Return to Bag End) sees Dain as Thorin 'as he should have been' ie. noble and just, in the same way that Faramir is as Boromir should have been.
The first draft makes it clear that Bard is the 'he' referred to in the final version. And perhaps is also leaves space for Bilbo refusing more from Dain himself as it has it's own ambiguities. It reads:
Fascinating!
. It does read as though Dain thought it dealt with with Brand's share whether Tolkien intended it to or not, but clearly Bilbo still had a very good relationship with the dwarves who were frequent visitors and helpers. And Rateliff (The History of the Hobbit Part 2: Return to Bag End) sees Dain as Thorin 'as he should have been' ie. noble and just, in the same way that Faramir is as Boromir should have been.The first draft makes it clear that Bard is the 'he' referred to in the final version. And perhaps is also leaves space for Bilbo refusing more from Dain himself as it has it's own ambiguities. It reads:
So he would take no more from Bard (as it says clearly in the final version) or.... perhaps Tolkien's original thoughts were that he would take no more from anyone and it got lost when he did the final draft?Yet a fourteenth share of all the gold and silver made and unmade was given up to Bard; for Dain said 'we will honour the agreement of the dead, and he has now the Arkenstone in his keeping'.
And of that Bilbo was given a chest full of silver and a chest full of gold by Bard himself - he would take no more.
Fascinating!
Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
-
Merry
- Varda
- Posts: 3263
- Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
- Location: Middle-west
Yes, it is! I guess I've never wondered about this before. Bilbo was wealthy enough on his own inheritance, I suppose, not to have to worry about this at all, so that his chief concern was practical: how to get the blasted stuff home and what he was going to do with it when he got there. Hence, it was probably not too hard to give away the necklace. The mithril coat and Sting had some practical value, and how was he to know that the trip home wouldn't be as adventurous as the original trip had been? Having a lot of filthy lucre might have attracted marauders on the way home as well.
Do you think that Balin kind of took Thorin's place as leader of the ten remaining dwarves or did Dain become the de facto leader? I guess my thought is that the dwarves who knew Bilbo probably knew that when he said he didn't want anything else, he meant it.
Do you think that Balin kind of took Thorin's place as leader of the ten remaining dwarves or did Dain become the de facto leader? I guess my thought is that the dwarves who knew Bilbo probably knew that when he said he didn't want anything else, he meant it.
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
-
Riv Res
- Manwë
- Posts: 2111
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:35 am
- Location: Walking the fields of the Pelennor with the King
This has been a wonderful project that has really gotten us all back into The Hobbit which is a delight to re-visit.
What kind of either calendar or other project could we undertake to get us back into the MUCH bigger work of The Silmarillion? I am thinking of something with maybe a monthly entry where we wouldn't be pressured to get our entries done quickly and have time to discuss the current entry at length.
If we did do a calendar type entry, it would take us through the material more or less sequentially and that might be good.
The Hobbit Calendar has been fun. What are your thoughts on bringing a little fun to The Sil?
What kind of either calendar or other project could we undertake to get us back into the MUCH bigger work of The Silmarillion? I am thinking of something with maybe a monthly entry where we wouldn't be pressured to get our entries done quickly and have time to discuss the current entry at length.
If we did do a calendar type entry, it would take us through the material more or less sequentially and that might be good.
The Hobbit Calendar has been fun. What are your thoughts on bringing a little fun to The Sil?
-
Iolanthe
- Uinen
- Posts: 2339
- Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:21 pm
- Location: Washing my hair in the Sundering Sea
We've still got a bit of the Hobbit Calendar to go, of course, with a couple of entries left for May. It seems a long way away!
I think we're up to tackling the Sil but how we do it is a bit knotty. I'm not sure how we divide this book up. Chapter by chapter is too big so I guess it has to be a timeline starting right at the pre-time creation of the Ainur, but looking at the ones I've found online it's very daunting...
This site has a chronology of the Silmarillion:
http://home.comcast.net/~mithrandircq/S ... nology.htm
Here's one on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Arda
We could spend a long time just checking if they tally
. Is there an 'official' printed one anywhere in HofME?
I think we're up to tackling the Sil but how we do it is a bit knotty. I'm not sure how we divide this book up. Chapter by chapter is too big so I guess it has to be a timeline starting right at the pre-time creation of the Ainur, but looking at the ones I've found online it's very daunting...
This site has a chronology of the Silmarillion:
http://home.comcast.net/~mithrandircq/S ... nology.htm
Here's one on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Arda
We could spend a long time just checking if they tally
. Is there an 'official' printed one anywhere in HofME?Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...