Discussing The Hobbit

[Iolanthe]

There is a lot of truth in all of that, Lyannesse. I guess the problem with the Hobbit is you have to read between the lines and know Tolkien's other works to really understand why they are so grumpy and single-minded. As it's the first book that most people read as youngsters it forms their opinion of dwarves until they can get to Gimli and discover that there is a lot more to them!

[Merry]

Nice to see you again, lyanness! You do have some good insights.

You remind me of the great story of the creation of the dwarves: Aule gets creative and makes these conscious beings, but offers to destroy them when Eru tells him that they weren't in the original plan. In his mercy, Eru says they shouldn't be destroyed. Would this cause an 'inferiority complex', as you suggest, lyanness? Maybe; maybe not! I don't think Thorin and Co. feel they are inferior to other races. Perhaps the fact that Eru allowed them to live is a mark of their real worth. As with other events in the creation myth, Eru has the greatness to allow other strains of music to blend with his own, making an even more beautiful melody.

I agree with you, though, about how the desire for revenge upon Smaug and a return to their rightful home and status may have overpowered their good sense at times!

[Lindariel]

I think we need to be careful here to be true to Tolkien's telling of the creation of the Dwarves. Eru's anger was not at the Dwarves themselves nor was it because they were not "part of the plan," but at Aule for overstepping his ability and authority:

Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?

When Aule immediately returns to obedience and even offers to destroy his work, Eru stays Aule's hand and shows compassion to the Dwarves by granting them independent lives and wills. Eru then orders them to be placed essentially in suspended animation until the awakening of the Children of Iluvatar, not as some punishment of the Dwarves, but to teach Aule patience:

Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein . . . . But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that thy impatience should be rewarded.

I don't see where the Dwarves could have developed an "inferiority complex" over the tale of their creation. At every step of the way, Eru shows them nothing but compassion. Indeed, Eru saves them from meaningless lives as automatons to Aule's will, grants them their own unique role in the Music, and "adopts" them, giving them "a place among the Children in the End."

Indeed, at the end of the tale of the making of the Dwarves Tolkien gives us a great deal of insight into their personalities:

Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aule made the Dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not for ever.

Stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity -- there is Thorin Oakenshield in a nutshell!

[Merry]

Close to the text, as always, Lindariel! I'm going to defend my statement, though, that Eru thought that the dwarves were not 'part of the plan'. His plan was that the first- and second-born would be, well, first and second! That he put the dwarves in 'suspended animation' until that part of the plan could be enacted shows this. Aule's intentions weren't bad, I guess, but also not made with the wisdom of Eru.

One does have to admire Eru for his willingness to let things happen, though!

It would be interesting to do a little theology: do the dwarves consider Aule or Eru their God? I'm not an expert on the Sil: is there anything there about the worship habits of dwarves?

[Iolanthe]

Funny you should mention this because I was reading a bit further into Rateliff (The History of the Hobbit Part 2, Return to Bag End) last week and found some interesing musings on what happens to dwarves after death. He picks up on Thorin's comment about going to the Halls of Waiting:

'I go now to the Halls of Waiting to sit beside my fathers until the world is renewed.'
The Hobbit: The Return Journey

According to Rateliff this mention in The Hobbit is the first time Tolkien addresses Dwarvish belief in an afterlife. While he said a lot about Elves (Halls of Mandos, reincarnation, bound to the circles of the world etc.) and Men (going beyond the circles of the world and their Fate is unknown beyond that) he'd said nothing about Dwarves except that they returned to the earth they were made from and had no soul that lived on.

But then, later on (c. 1937) when revising what became the Sil, he contradicted Thorin's statement in The Hobbit with:

Dwarves have no spirit indwelling, as have the Children of the Creator....they go back to the stone of the mountains of which they were made. (Later) Annals of Beleriand - HME V.129

Rateliff says this mirrors old Norse lore about dwarves.

Then later again he revised the Quenta Silmarillion to be more in accord with The Hobbit:

The Noldor believed that the Dwraves have no spirit indwelling... and that they go back into the stone of the mountains of which they were made. Yet others say that Aule cares for them, and that Iluvatar will accept from him the work of his desire, so that the dwarves shall not perish. - HME V.146

Rateliff thinks it's remarkable that Tolkien altered (finally) his older legendarium to match Bilbo's story, with the newly published book gaining authority over as yet unpublished material (just as, he says, LotR would finally gain authority over both).

He also notes that Thorin's words didn't get a complete explanation until 1951 with the Later Quenta which finally brings it all together:

[The Dwarves] live long... aforetime the Noldor held that dying they returned unto the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say Aule cares for them and gathers them in Mandos in halls set apart for them, and there they wait, not in idleness but in the practice of crafts and the learnings of yet deeper lore. And Aule, they say, declared to their Fathers of old that Iluvatar ...will... give them a place among the Children in the end. Then their part shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the re-making of Arda after the Last Battle. - HME XI. 204

So there you go - very complicated but he got there in the end!

[Merry]

This is great! You know, no one should ever declare herself or himself a Tolkien 'expert': just when you think you know it all . . .

Clearly the dwarves have an indwelling spirit. Of course, in a world wherein animals can speak, maybe it's not so clear. (And on the other hand . . . ) So these excerpts make it seem that Aule is sort of the Advocate and Eru is God.

[Lindariel]

Here is that passage as published in The Silmarillion:

Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aule the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Iluvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. They say also that the Seven Fathers of the dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dum.

Merry, as far as the Dwarves not being "part of the plan," I return time and again to Eru's words to Melkor:

Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

It seems clear to me that this statement applies to Aule's secret making of the Dwarves as well. In fact, Eru says as much: "Even as I gave being to the thoughts of the Ainur at the beginning of the World, so now I have taken up thy desire and given to it a place therein."

I think that the Dwarves do in fact have their "uttermost source" in Eru Iluvatar. He knew Aule's impatience to behold the Children of Iluvatar and his desire to make beings of his own; Aule just "jumped the gun" by bringing them into being before the Firstborn.

[Merry]

So, Lindariel, are you saying that Eru knew from the beginning that Aule would make the dwarves and counted on that in order to implement his original plan? If so, it was a bit unfair of him to chastise Aule for doing it. Even the phrase 'jump the gun' implies that bringing the dwarves to life at that point in history was not part of the original plan. Rather, I think that Eru decided that, in making thinking and creative creatures, his plan would have to evolve to accomodate whatever genuine newness they would contribute to the world. It's kind of a neat idea: it makes Eru not an autocrat. (Is there an opposite of 'autocrat'? Maybe 'democrat', but that's not exactly the idea I'm looking for!)

I would imagine that Tolkien was familiar with arguments about free will and pre-destination in his own tradition's theology. In sort of fits in with his idea of artistic subcreation being a participation in the divine.

[Chrissiejane]

I'm so glad to be reminded of these issues from The Sil, and to have the benfit of this analysis!

I did not read The Hobbit until after I had read LOTR, which is as just as well: If I had read The Hobbit first I doubt that I would have got any further into the professor's work, mainly because in The Hobbit, he presented to me a group of major characters with whom I simply could not empathise. But looking at the events of creation through this particular lens, courtesy of this discussion, I can better understand the Dwarf temperament. I must re-read The Hobbit and I am sure I will be more appreciative of the Dwarf p-o-v next time around.

[Lindariel]

So, Lindariel, are you saying that Eru knew from the beginning that Aule would make the dwarves and counted on that in order to implement his original plan? If so, it was a bit unfair of him to chastise Aule for doing it. Even the phrase 'jump the gun' implies that bringing the dwarves to life at that point in history was not part of the original plan. Rather, I think that Eru decided that, in making thinking and creative creatures, his plan would have to evolve to accomodate whatever genuine newness they would contribute to the world. It's kind of a neat idea: it makes Eru not an autocrat. (Is there an opposite of 'autocrat'? Maybe 'democrat', but that's not exactly the idea I'm looking for!)

I would imagine that Tolkien was familiar with arguments about free will and pre-destination in his own tradition's theology. In sort of fits in with his idea of artistic subcreation being a participation in the divine.

AH, yes! Free will versus predestination is always a tricky thing, isn't it? No, I don't think Eru had everything all perfectly mapped out, but He did "know" His creations, and their ideas and work and efforts all spring from this single, central entity and have their "uttermost source" in Him. Did He "know" that Aule would specifically create the Dwarves? No. But He did "know" the strength of Aule's creative desires, and so could not have been entirely surprised that Aule would do something like this.

I think Eru's "anger" at Aule was truly more instructive in nature: Have you truly thought through what you have done? You do not have the power to give them a will and being of their own, so they are bound solely to your will and thought. What kind of life is that?

The test for Aule was whether he would realize the error of his ways and submit his creations to the will of the One, or whether he would "fall" like Melkor. To his credit, Aule is immediately horrified by the ramifications of what he has done and even offers to destroy his own creations (something Feanor, notably, could not do with his Silmarils, even to help restore the Two Trees). Eru's response to His good and faithful servant's immediate obedience is to embrace Aule's creations as His own, to give them life independent of the will of Aule, and to incorporate them into the whole of Arda, to make them part of the Music.

But to make certain Aule has learned his lesson, Eru demands that the Dwarves be suspended in time until after the Firstborn have awakened. All things must come in their own time, and Arda is not yet ready for any of the Children. Aule must learn patience. Creation, after all, can be both constructive and destructive.

[Iolanthe]

This is all fascinating - I'm finding the whole dwarvish culture and origins interesting at the moment, it's so easily overlooked in favour of the dazzling Elves, heroic Men and charming and surprising Hobbits. Over the last few weeks I've been reading up quite a bit on them! It's good to get this whole 'created by Aule' thing and it's implications in such focus.

[Merry]

I agree--I'm learning more appreciation for Hobbit and dwarf as we do this!

Lindariel, your comparison of Feanor and Aule is a good one: we see Tolkien do this with pairs like Saruman and Gandalf, Boromir and Faramir. So Eru allows for Aule's creation to modify 'the plan', but Eru must sort of 'bless' the dwarves' existence before this can happen. Surely this tips the scales into the dwarves' having a similar kind of afterlife as men and elves, right?

[lyanness]

I don't think Thorin and Co. feel they are inferior to other races.

I've always felt as though the dwarves have something to prove to others - that they're the better fighters, architects, miners, jewelers, etc. I've also felt that the only reason that Gimli joined the fellowship was because Legolas joined it, and as he said (in the movie, sorry, I'm not as good as quoting from the book as yet, working on it though) "I'd rather be dead than see the Ring in the hands of an elf! Never trust an elf!"

[Lindariel]

Yes indeed. Eru tells Aule that they will be the Children of His "adoption." Also, the Dwarves say that Father Mahal (Aule) told the Seven Fathers that "Iluvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aule and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle." I think it is VERY clear that the Dwarves have an afterlife.

I like all of Tolkien's "pairs" as well, Merry. With Aule, we actually have two sets of comparisons to make: Aule/Melkor and Aule/Feanor. Both Aule and Melkor desire the creation of sentient beings of their very own, but with vastly different intentions. Aule desires Children to love and teach, Melkor wants subjects to dominate. Aule's creations are hallowed and uplifted; Melkor falls from grace. The fall of Melkor of course represents the fall of Lucifer.

Both Aule and Feanor are faced with situations in which their dearest creations are placed in the balance. Aule submits his creations to the will of the One, Feanor refuses to offer up his creations to renew the Two Trees. Aule and his creations grow in grace; Feanor falls from grace, and in the process takes his people with him. The fall of Feanor is a parallel for the fall of Adam/humankind.

The story of Aule and the creation of the Dwarves is a very pivotal one, providing a strong foil for two of Tolkien's most important characters, Melkor/Morgoth and Feanor. The ripples and ramifications of this story are felt throughout The Professor's works.

[Merry]

That reminds me of a line from one of the letters, I think (my books are still in boxes, so I cannot consult): Tolkien claims that every story is about a Fall. That has always struck me as an extraordinary claim!