The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

[Iolanthe]

He's hit the nail on the head there. Belief is hugely important and I've read so many books which are 'cramped little stages where varyingly fashionable marionettes jiggle and sing'.

Another reason why people who love Tolkien love him passionately rather than just enjoying another well written book.

[Merry]

Kreeft said that he doesn't fully trust anyone who doesn't like LOTR--I know what he means! I was talking with a group of students before class this week, and one of them said, 'You know this is fantasy, don't you?', and I asked, 'Is it? Are you sure?' He said, 'Well, there are elves and Balrogs in there,' and I told him I knew plenty of elves and Balrogs, and that some of them were in our very college! He knew what I meant.

[Iolanthe]

I think we all know a few!

[Philipa]

Today, May 1st is coronation day.

[Merry]

I've made this my background picture in honor of it, Philipa:

King of Gondor

© Anke Eissmann

I could look at this all day long! But I'm wondering who some of the people are.

[Philipa]

Lovely Merry. I hope you don't mind but you were hotlinking to the image so I changed it to a link.

[Philipa]

Oh, BTW I've opened up a new thread at Viggo-Works which may interest some of you. The discussion is regarding an album of deleted scenes from LotR that the Tor.n member grammaboodawg gave permission for me to post there. Come check it out.

Lord of the Ring - deleted scenes

[Merry]

Thanks for correcting that, Philipa--I'm not very knowledgeable about all of this computer stuff!

[Merry]

I'm not sure this is the right place for this, but . . .

Like most Catholics of my generation, I don't know the Bible very well, particularly the Old Testament. The scope of the history is just so vast. So I've been part of a group of students trying to learn some of this stuff. This was part of the book we're reading:

When Solomon died, his son Rehoboam refused to renegotiate the kingdom's taxation policies, and the tribes rebelled. Ten of the twelve tribes split off and established a Northern Kingdom . . . All that was left for the House of David were the two tiny tribes of Judah and Benjamin.

In this period of decay, great prophets arose to herald a revival of the House of David. Isaiah prophesied that salvation would come with the birth of an heir to David's throne. The new king's dominion would be vast and would endure "both now and forever" (see Is 9:5-6). Elsewhere (see Is 11:1-16), Isaiah predicted the sprouting of a new shoot from the root of Jesse, who was the father of David. The prophets repeatedly portrayed the restoration as a recapitulation of God's covenants of the past; it would be like a new creation, a new exodus, as well as a new kingdom.

The prophets, however, could not halt Israel's decline. Badly weakened, the divided kingdom we easy prey for its neighbors . . . The Northern Kingdom was destroyed in 722 B.C., overrun by the Assyrians. In 587, Babylon sacked Jerusalem, shattering the Southern Kingdom . . .

Within a generation after David's death, the "everlasting kindom" had vanished. Within five hundred years the royal lineage, too, was apparently extinguished.

from Scott Hahn, Reasons to Believe, 2007.

Sound familiar? Too familiar?

[Riv Res]

Hhmmmm...was Tolkien also a biblical scholar?

[Merry]

I don't know. I've never read anything about it but, as you know, I think the faith aspect of Tolkien has been widely ignored. As far as I can tell, he was very well read and ahead of his time in many theological and philosophical theories. It would surprise me if he had not read the Old Testament and thought about the story arc in terms of his idea of myth.

[Iolanthe]

He must have read it, mustn't he? And there is a lot of the 'Messiah' about Aragorn as a 'new shoot', but from the root of Elendil. But he has such a light touch with it it's not overtly obvious or rammed down your throat, it's just one of the many backgrounds that Aragorn steps out from. And ultimately Aragorn establishes an earthly kingdom that will fall again.

I'd forgotten that ancient Israel had a north and south kingdom.

[Merry]

That's what caught my attention first. Do we know of any other reference to a Northern Kingdom and a Southern Kingdom? And then the fact that the Northern Kingdom became easy prey for its neighbors and was picked apart.

As I said, I can imagine him needing to read the OT as a long narrative. But if he did so, it would have been before most Catholics did such things, i.e., before Vatican II. Since childhood, he would have heard some of the stories as short readings during Mass and, as I'm starting to learn, much of the language and symbolism of the NT is rooted in the OT. (Brings to mind that I've often heard people refer to The Sil as Tolkien's OT.)

I've always thought that the eagle's song after the destruction of the Ring had a clearly OT tone to it.

[Iolanthe]

It does - it's very reminiscent of the Psalms.

Something's been nagging me since my last post - there is another northern and southern kingdom and I just couldn't remember what it was. Now I do... it's the two original Kingdoms of Ancient Egypt which were divided into north and south (Upper and Lower Egypt). The double crown of the Pharaohs represented their rule over the two united kingdoms.

I think this must be partly where Tolkien drew his two kingdoms of Gondor from as I know he based their love of monumental structures and funeral obsessions on them.

[Merry]

Amazing how many sources he drew from! Were they called 'upper and lower' or were 'northern and southern' ever used?