Middle-earth Journeys

Okay, Kel, I see. I can agree that the past plays a big part, of course. But I can also agree with you because I think you're still leaving some room for free choice.

Bruce, you make me laugh, since I AM one of those rarified, university philosophers! But I also agree with you that real philosophical questions (and answers) are daily and basic: How do we know what is true? How can you tell that difference between what is real and what's not? What does it mean to be a human being? How should we respond to the world in action? And all people answer those questions, in one way or the other. It's just that some people answer them well and some don't! It used to be that university philosophers helped people to answer them well, but of course, that's not always the case any more. (Nice to see the reference to Kant, by the way!)

Kel, I too grasp what you are trying to explain. The only concern I have when such self centric arguments are made one risks defending a solipistic frame of reference. Ths is the state where one claims that all reality resides within one's mind and that all externals are nothing more that an object of one's consciouness. Or..think Neo's frame of reference in the Matrix.
Merry, gald to have made you chuckle, however, I rather think that Emmanuel took his 3 o'clock quite seriously. Too bad the world has not made better use of the philosophic community.
As to Beren and Luthien, shall we wait until Sunday so folks can catch up on the who, where, and what of the tale?

Ah! I will shortly be leaving on vacation through August 20 and would love to participate in a discussion of the wonderful tale of Beren and Luthien. What a marvelous story with such a strong and mysterious heroine!

Farewell sweet earth and northern sky,
for ever blest, since here did lie
and here with lissom limbs did run
beneath the Moon, beneath the Sun,
Luthien Tinuviel
more fair than mortal tongue can tell.
Though all to ruin fell the world
and were dissolved and backward hurled
unmade into the old abyss,
yet were its making good, for this --
the dusk, the dawn, the earth, the sea --
that Luthien for a time should be.

I look forward to reading your discussion when I return!

Have a great vacation, Lindariel. And don't worry: at our leisurely, Entish pace, we will probably just have gotten started on your return!

Well, I'll start the discussion off by stating only what is perfectly obvious, that Luthien exhibited a great deal of freedom by choosing Beren. Was there anything in her background that would have predisposed her to such a choice? Not only was she the daughter of an elf-lord, but also of a demi-goddess who had put a powerful, protective ring around their land! Luthien was raised in near seclusion and might have been the most beloved and protected being in Middle-earth. No wonder everybody was upset when she fell for a scruffy mortal! Yet her choice was powerful.

What say you?

I have to admit, I can't read the part before tuesday, because my girlfriend has the Silmarillion at her house, and she was taking some holiday til today.

But for the part I can still recall... Her mother never was upset about her decision and I guess it is for her higher being that she can see beyond the moment. Her father on the other hand is, although he is one of the wisest around the elves who have never seen the "light", still to blinded by the fact that Luthien is his own blood. I am sure it would have turned otherwise if she weren't his daughter.


more I will write when I am finished with the tale.

The tale of Beren and Luthien acts as the template for many of the re-occuring themes of the line of Elves and Men. Within the story the fate of man as well as the Doom of Mandos is inextricably united. Beren and Luthien strive against all evil and the machinations of the sons of Feanor. An interesting motif is contrasted, that of the obsession to an object, the Silmarillion compared to the nobility and selfless-ness of the love of the beloved. This theme is reinstated in the later books when Smeagol's obession to the One Ring is named the precious as opposed to the love of Arargorn and Arwen and Sam and Frodo.
Thingol's pride coupled to a lust for gaining what should have never been captured into one object is the hubris that would see the end of Menegroth. This we see later on "Of the Ruin of Doriath" but let us not jump too far ahead. Melian had warned Thingol of his foolishness and knows that this quest is not to undo the source of strife and death, but to own it for one's self. The sons of Feanor, Celegorm and Curfin undermine King Felagund's realm when he leaves to assit Beren by sowing fear and horror among the Elves of Nargothrond.
Although the fate of the Elven kingdoms is fixed to the Silmarillions, one soul from the Blessed Realm will prove to be a champion to the nobility of love, that Huan, the hound Valinor. He would forsake the ill intent of Celegorm to assist Luthien to go into the isle of Sauron and throw him down fearing being a spector to be tormented by Morgoth's scorn. Pity and contempt figure very large in Tolkien's works. Before Luthien could rescue both Beren and Felagund, he gave his life to throw down Sauron. Luthien sings a praise of the Sickle of the Valar that would foretell Morgoth's fate and would be the most beloved of Elven praises. It is of note that when Frodo is persued by the Nine, in the chapter Strider, the Warning to Morgoth is seen again.
The couple endures many trials and enter Angband much like Sam and Frodo in Mordor. Morgoth's lust coupled to Luthien's singing matches beauty against vice. Beren cuts forth a single silmarillion with Angrist, made by Telchar of Nogord, who also forged Narsil.
The quest having so close to being completed is sundered by Carcharoth who bites off the hand of Beren. They escape with the aid of Thorondor, the elder of Gwaihir, the windlord. The end we see Beren and Huan in combat against Caracharoth who's venom of Morgoth would claim their lives. Beren holds out a handless arm to Thingol and his folly proven to him by such a heroic soul.
Yet, not all is lost, even the Valar are moved to pity hearing Luthien's plea for Beren. She forsakes the Blessed Realm and suffers a second death as a mortal to be with Beren as long as time permits.
Lots of good themes to be discussed, love, duty, pride, folly, bravery, pity, and of defeat.

How about the theme of free will, Bruce?

It is all about free will is it not? Love is the most liberating of all choices by taking one out of the narrow borders on the self. Egoism as we have seen can grow to radical evil, and ill as it may be it is still a free choice.
Individuals find themselves in the ongoing drama of history. Beren chose to go on this quest for the love of Luthien not glory. The sons of Feanor might have thought they were operating out of fealty or duty, but their hearts were corrupt and chose to persue the Silmarillions to death and madness out of duplicity not responsibility.
One cannot escape the circumstaces of one's historical context but we cannot be excused from the decisions we must and ought to make when we are presented with significant and defining existential quandries.

If I remember correctly, Tolkien called the oath of the sons of Feanor "blasphemous" in one of his letters--strong word. In my mind, the oath is the turning point of the whole thing, the beginning of the tragedy. They had to know that this whole thing would turn out badly, didn't they?

I remember reading The Sil for the first time many years ago, and just being in shock when Thingol named the price for his daughter's hand. And I was equally shocked when Beren decided to go for it! Now that's freedom--to decide to try to accomplish something against all odds.

Any hubristic decision is clouded by egoism. It also appeals to a person's latent greed and arrogance. What we see in the oath is how well Feanor knew how to expliot these traits. Free will is very open ended and as we have witnessed from both Tolkien and History it can mean disaster or redemption.
In the case of Beren, I find his decision to take the challenge not one of egoism, but the self sacrifice to his beloved. The altruism of Beren and Luthien would mean the redemption of Middle Earth.

I have to disagree, at least for the moment. Why shouldn't it be an act of egosim? He does it for his love / beloved and hence for him. I truely would love to have it explained more clearly by you guys for I see it as an act of egoism, egoism is not always wrong and can also turn into an act of altruism...

Hi! I'm back from vacation and so glad to see this ongoing discussion!

Merry, I think that Luthien does have some precedent for her unusual choice -- her mother! After all, Melian the Maia married outside her "race" by choosing Elu Thingol (Elwe Singollo), one of the Eldar, as her husband. In fact, she enchants him (perhaps inadvertently) while he is leading his people to Valinor:

Elwe, lord of the Teleri, went often through the great woods to seek out Finwe his friend in the dwellings of the Noldor; and it chanced on a time that he came alone to the starlit wood of Nan Elmoth, and there suddenly he heard the song of nightingales. Then an enchantment fell on him, and he stood still; and afar off beyond the voices of the lomelindi he heard the voice of Melian, and it filled all his heart with wonder and desire. He forgot then utterly all his people and all the purposes of his mind, and following the birds under the shadow of the trees he passed deep into Nan Elmoth and was lost. But he came at last to a glade open to the stars, and there Melian stood; and out of the darkness he looked at her, and the light of Aman was in her face.

She spoke no word; but being filled with love Elwe came to her and took he rhand, and straightway a spell was laid on him, so that they stood thus while long years were measured by the wheeling stars above them; and the trees of Nan Elmoth grew tall and dark before they spoke any word.

I have no trouble understanding why Thingol would love Melian -- why wouldn't he? But, why did Melian choose him? He was extraordinarily tall -- the tallest of his race at 8 feet (I don't remember where I read that) -- which would be impressive, but not enough to sway the choice of a Maia. Certainly from his behavior concerning Beren, Thingol shows himself to be bigoted, stiff-necked, and short-sighted, and it seems that Melian spends a great deal of her time and effort "managing" his behavior. What was the attraction for her?

Kelkhatan, I do agree that Beren might have initially been driven by pride to accomplish this quest, especially in light of Thingol's beastly and insulting behavior. But after suffering the horrible loss of all of his companions and especially the death of King Finrod Felagund in Sauron's dungeons, then being rescued beyond all hope by Luthien herself only to be almost mortally wounded by Celegorm and Curufin when they attempt to take her from him, Beren regrets the danger his oath to Thingol has brought upon Luthien, and he leaves her sleeping on the grass in Doriath under the care of Huan the hound of Valinor. Beren does come to recognize the recklessness of his oath and to regret the terrible price his quest has already exacted on his companions, the King, and his beloved. "Thrice how I curse my oath to Thingol, and I would that he had slain me in Menegroth, rather than I should bring you under the shadow of Morgoth."

At this point, Huan speaks and advises Beren that he has but two choices. "From the shadow of death you can no longer save Luthien, for by her love she is now subject to it. You can turn from your fate and lead her into exile, seeking peace in vain while your life lasts. But if you will not deny your doom, then either Luthien, being forsaken, must assuredly die alone, or she must with you challenge the fate that lies before you -- hopeless, yet not certain." Luthien refuses to leave Beren, and they undertake the final quest together.

Beren does have one more moment of . . . folly? hubris? After successfully cutting one Silmaril from Morgoth's crown, he decides to attempt to take all three Silmarils. But the knife Angrist snaps and a shard cuts Morgoth's cheek, waking him from the enchantment of Luthien's song. If he had just been satisfied with the one Silmaril, they might have been able to escape Angband without having to face an awakened Carcharoth at the gate. Beren pays for his lapse in judgment by losing his hand to the werewolf and later loses his life when he rides with Thingol to attempt to kill the ravening beast.

Beren is a complex hero who is really not all that fully revealed in The Silmarillion. I have not had an opportunity to read the entire Lay of Leithian, which departs from the story in The Silmarillion in places. The Lay might reveal more about Beren's character and explain Luthien's attraction to him. I still don't understand what Melian saw in Thingol!

I never got that, either, Lindariel, although you're right about Luthien following her mother's choices. It's hard to think of her doing this out of any less freedom thought. One of the speakers at the Oxford conference mentioned that all of the elf/human matings that happen in Tolkien are between a mortal man and an elvish woman--never the other way around--and Thingol/Melian sort of have the same proportion, if you know what I mean. We have to suspect that Tolkien's adoration of Edith had something to do with this, don't you think?

Yes indeed, Merry! In the cases of both Beren and Thingol, the men just don't quite seem to be worthy of their incredible wives. Aragorn almost seems to be designed to make up for the unworthiness of his predecessors. He almost seems too good for Arwen, in a way. At least the little bit of Arwen we get to know in LOTR and the Appendices. I really wish Tolkien would have had the opportunity to fill us in on the ways Arwen "upheld" Aragorn in his quest. You know it had to be more than weaving and embroidering a standard, although I'm quite sure that had to be a device filled with elven magic and blessings. I just wish she hadn't lost her faith at Elessar's death.

Tuor and Idril aren't drawn well enough for me to get a feeling for either of them. I'm just glad she had the good sense to choose Tuor over Maeglin!