Discussing The Hobbit

[lyanness]

I rarely disagree with Peter Jackson's interpretation of the LoTR, but after reading the scene of Bilbo finding the ring in the Goblin's cave, I have to disagree with him regarding Gollum.

In the movie, Gollum is so cuuuuute! He looks like someone that I'd like to adopt.

In the book, Gollum actually scared the heng out of me! I had to get out of my bubble bath quickly and look for a companion to stop being freaked out. I do have an EXTREMELY vivid imagination, but Tolkien's description of Gollum was completely contrasted to the cute little cuddly Gollum on the screen.

[Iolanthe]

In the movies, Gandalf is a Mitherandian, called that by some of the races on the film. Mitherandians are a different race of beings that live for many ages and once they die, they come back into the same body (in the movie).

Following on from Lindarial's explanation - I think in the movies he is often called by his Elvish name, Mithrandir, which is causing some confusion when that's the only contact a lot of people have had with the story.

Gandalf only comes back after the encounter with the Balrog because the Valar (Higher Angelic beings like Archangels) have sent him back as his work isn't finished. This is the same as in the book and is a sort of special case. A 'one off' if you like. Gandalf in the book and the film (though it's not made clear in the film) is also an angelic being of a lesser order, sent into Middle-earth to help it in it's fight against Sauron. Saruman is another angelic being, sent with Gandalf for the same purpose. Though, of course, he has been corrupted and turned to evil. In Middle-earth they have both taken the form of old men and are called 'Wizards'.

I guess there just isn't enough time in the films to make all these things clear. In fact, it's not really made clear in the book. Tolkien wrote more about the Valar (the higher angels), the Maiar (the lesser angels) and who Gandalf was in The Unfinished Tales and The Silmarillion. It's such a vast mythology it takes quite a while to find your feet in it!

So Gandalf in the film isn't really very different from the book, it's just that there is so much left unsaid that tells us why he is called 'Mithrandir' and where he has come from . When he goes back accross the sea at the end he is going home to where all the Valar live.

It's wonderful that you have fallen in love with these stories and if there's anything you want to know more about just ask! We even have a thread for it:

Questions and Answers about Tolkien and His Work whidh you'll find in the Simply Tolkien forum. There are plenty of us here to answer!!!

[Lindariel]

I think this passage from The Two Towers (the book) should help to clear up some of the confusion about Gandalf's many names. This is from a conversation between Faramir and Frodo while they are with the Ithilien Rangers in Henneth Annun (Lyanness, in the movie, Henneth Annun is the name of the cave with the lovely waterfall that the Rangers used as their base of operations, although PJ didn't include this long, very involved conversation in the movie):

"Mithrandir we called him in elf-fashion," said Faramir, "and he was content. Many are my names in many countries, he said. Mithrandir among the Elves. Tharkun to the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten; in the South Incanus; in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not."

I think you must have heard someone in the film call Gandalf "Mithrandir," his name among the Elves and the Gondorians, and mistook it for "Mitherandian."

Gandalf's first and original name, as mentioned above, was Olorin. This was his name during his early days in the Undying Lands, when he existed in his true incarnation as one of the Maiar -- the "lesser angels" Iolanthe mentioned. When Sauron began to become a big problem, the "Higher Angels" -- the Ainur -- called upon Olorin (and four other Maiar, including the Maiar who becomes Saruman) to undertake a quest to help the beings of Middle-earth -- Elves, Dwarves, Men, and other creatures of good spirit, like the Hobbits, the Ents, the Beornings, etc. -- to combat Sauron and save Middle-earth.

The catch is that he cannot be permitted to enter Middle-earth as one of the Maiar; he can only do so in human form. When he accepts this mission, he is recreated as one of the five Istari -- the Wizards. The Wizards appear to be old men, and they are subject to the pains and limitations of their human bodies, but they are endowed with special powers, probably a reflection of the power they had as Maiar.

As Olorin the Istar/Wizard becomes known to the creatures of Middle-earth, they give him names in keeping with their particular languages -- hence Mithrandir, Tharkun, Incanus, and Gandalf. Since The Hobbit and LOTR take place mostly in the North of Middle-earth, Gandalf is the first of his many names that we as readers (and moviegoers) get to know, and the one that is most used during the course of the story.

[Merry]

Lyanness, your insight into Gollum is interesting. In the first publication of The Hobbit, Gollum is not as scary. Bilbo's meeting with him is tense, but not menacing. The riddle game, after all, is not exactly the stuff of horror movies!

But after he began to write LOTR, Tolkien realized that the 'Riddles in the Dark' chapter in Hobbit had become more important, and he told the publishers he wanted to rewrite it in light of that in subsequent editions. The second version is what most of us have read and Gollum is indeed creepy! It would be interesting to read the two versions to compare and contrast them.

I'm sure it was a huge challenge for the movie makers to make a Gollum that we could imagine trying to kill Frodo and still have pity on him. I agree in places that he was too cute, but mostly they did a good job, in my opinion.

[librislove]

Indeed, Tolkien, and Jackson after him, walked a thin line between making Gollum creepy and terrifying, while retaining those basically hobbit qualities that made us pity him, and allowed Frodo to both identify with him and recognize that he was what Frodo would become if he retained the Ring. Both craftsmen did a good job, I think.

[Lindariel]

I agree, librislove! Gollum is such a difficult and complex character to take from the printed page and successfully render on film. He must be at one and the same time creepy, threatening, repulsive, and most especially pathetic. The audience must identify and empathize with him while also condemning him for plotting against Frodo and Sam. That's a VERY tall order.

I actually thought PJ and crew did a wonderful job of walking that very fine line with Smeagol/Gollum. There were occasionally moments when I began to worry that the Smeagol personality was veering a little too close to ET-like cuteness, but I thought they always managed to pull him back just at the brink. I never thought the Gollum personality was cute at all.

Andy Serkis' characterization was nothing short of brilliant, and the famous "debate" scene between Smeagol and Gollum was a tour de force combination of exceptional acting and stupendous special effects.

[lyanness]

Oh my gosh, the wealth of knowledge in this site is overwhelming!!!
Thank you all for not holding back on your knowledge, it means a lot to me.
I'm so glad to have found this site!!It was by complete chance, which goes to show - good things lurk where one doesnt go looking.

I agree, with you, Lindariel. I've seen some of the MANY versions of Gollum/Smeagol that Alan Lee and John Howe have come up with, and PJ, Weta workshop and the IT personnel must have had sleepless nights getting him 'right' (I say 'right' in this way as right out of inverted commas mean perfect to me, and nothing in this world is perfect).

It does help reading the Hobbit for the second time after watching the movies, as I see the actors in the characters and that makes the book even more animated for me and helps me get even more absorbed and involved in it. I see Ian Holm in Bilbo, John Rhys-Davies in almost all of the dwarves, Ian McKellen (I apologise, Sir Ian McKellen) in Gandalf and Hugo Weaving in Elrond. I even see the Wargs as is seen in the movie, which gave me palpitations when Bilbo, Gandalf and the Dwarves were stuck in the trees outside the Goblins area of the mountains and I actually cheered - which made my family come running to see if I was alright - when the Eagles saved them.

Amazing stories, absolutely amazing. Thank God for Tolkien.

[lyanness]

I think you must have heard someone in the film call Gandalf "Mithrandir," his name among the Elves and the Gondorians, and mistook it for "Mitherandian."

Thats exactly what I did. Thanks Lindariel.

[Lindariel]

Not a problem, Lyanness. I'm very happy that your experience with the PJ movies has led you to the original Tolkien books. We always love to hear about new converts to our little fandom/geekdom.

Actually, I'm a little disappointed in one thing. I was hoping you had come across a new Tolkien term "Mitherandian" for us to investigate, discuss, and generally relish. You'll find that we MeJ members just LOVE to dive into ANY new Tolkien information we can find!

Welcome to the club!

[lyanness]

Dont worry, I've most probably got one of the most enquiring minds on the planet.

Watch this space, i will definately come up with something that will pickle the thistles out of this site. (drooling in anticipation)

For now, my questions are that typical of an Infant-Tolkanite, but every baby must grow up one day.

[lyanness]

Is this fate or shocking co-incidence?

I visited another forum on this site (Just a bit of fun - Your elf/hobbit name) and my name is Galadriël Mithrandír

My Hobbit name's too embarassing to mention, so I'll keep my elf name with pride.

[Philipa]

Lucky us we get to pick and choose.

[lyanness]

I need help out here.

Bilbo was sleeping in Beorn's house with the dwarves and something was scratching on the door outside the house at night.

What was scratching on the door?

Why didn't the horses cause a commotion?

I thought at first that it was Beorn at the front door, but then realised, why would he damage his own property, especially property that he built with his own hands? even more reason to look after it, not destroy it.

Does anyone know the size of Beorn? Apparently the Anduin river is MASSIVE and for him to cross even half of it to carve the steps into the great rock......

He shapes into a bear. What type of bear? Grizzly? Polar-sized? Brown-sized? There is a life-sized model of a bear (Grizzly) in the Museum in Cape Town and if he is the size of that bear, then I cant think how he could have carved those stairs. He couldn't be big enough.

any suggestions would be most appreciated

[Iolanthe]

I always assumed the scratching was Beorn himself and that he was a very big bear in his bear form. I suppose as a bear he is dangerous and doesn't mind scratching up his own property as it's made of wood and is robust . I think he warns them to stay inside because he knows what he is like in his 'bearness' if you know what I mean!

When Beorn (as a bear) follows them on their journey to Mirkwood Gandalf describes him as a 'great' bear but doesn't give the colour although Bilbo spots him as a shadowy dark form. I've always thought of him as a brown bear, more typical of ancient northern woodlands.

I visited another forum on this site (Just a bit of fun - Your elf/hobbit name) and my name is Galadriël Mithrandír

That is about the best elvish name you could ever get! Kewl .

Oh my gosh, the wealth of knowledge in this site is overwhelming!!!

Only because we've got years of Tolkien reading under our belts - some many more years than others. I've always loved The Lord of the Rings but my interest didn't really take off until I saw the films and went back to the book again. Now I'm an addict .

[Lindariel]

There is also the description of Beorn's ferocious appearance during the Battle of the Five Armies:

In that last hour Beorn himself had appeared -- no one knew how or from where. He came alone, and in bear's shape; and he seemed to have grown almost to giant-size in his wrath.

The roar of his voice was like drums and guns; and he tossed wolves and goblins from his path like straws and feathers. He fell upon their rear, and broke like a clap of thunder through the ring. The dwarves were making a stand still about their lords upon a low rounded hill. Then Beorn stooped and lifted Thorin, who had fallen pieced with spears, and bore him out of the fray.

Swiftly he returned and his wrath was redoubled, so that nothing could withstand him, and no weapon seemed to bite upon him. He scattered the bodyguard, and pulled down Bolg himself and crushed him.

I think Beorn in bear-shape is supposed to be MUCH larger than your average bear -- especially when he's angry!

I really, REALLY liked the character of Beorn and was very sorry when the Beornings made no appearance in LOTR, other than a brief mention to Frodo by Gloin about the Beornings being "valiant men [who] keep open the High Pass and the Ford of Carrock. But their tolls are high . . . and like Beorn of old they are not over fond of dwarves. Still, they are trusty, and that is much in these days." I would love to have heard it said somewhere, if only in the Appendices, that the Beornings came to the aid of Dain and Bard in Erebor, or to the aid of Thranduil and Celeborn in Mirkwood. Surely, Beorn's people must have played some role in the War of the Ring.