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Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:05 pm
by lyanness
That makes a ton of sense now.
I need to remember that all of these characters are born from Tolkien and are not necessarily that of the animals that I am used to seeing. My imagination needs to take over to realise Tolkien's world fully.
Now wonder even Gandalf was wary of Beorn.
I hope that after I have finished the Hobbit - I mean the proper reading thereof - and the LoTR, I could also have an appreciation of the Beornings, like you, Lindariel. There must be a reason why Tolkien didn't see them as fit to include in the LoTR. One thing that I have learnt so far is that Tolkien always had reasonings and meanings behind what he wrote - not like the other literary nonsense that can be found in the bookshops these days. I'm generalising, of course, but could anyone name another author that puts EVERYTHING into his work like Tolkien? Anyone who doesn't create just a nice story, but a true literary experience?
Ive read MANY books in my young life - everything in my school library, which wasnt small - and I made a point of buying and reading about 3 books a month after employment. NOTHING comes close to Tolkien.
I've truely hit the jackpot!!!!!
If only I could empassion my family. That would be a task and a half.

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:16 am
by marbretherese
lyanness wrote: could anyone name another author that puts EVERYTHING into his work like Tolkien? Anyone who doesn't create just a nice story, but a true literary experience?
I think you've hit the nail on the head there, Lyanness. Everything of importance to Tolkien - evrything he loved or was concerned about - is included in his work either obviously or just under the surface: religion, words and word-play, mythology, his wartime experiences, his concern for nature and the countryside, actual places (renamed of course!). I've never found anything as totally absorbing as Tolkien! every time you find another layer of meaning you realise you've only scratched the surface!
Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:43 am
by Iolanthe
It's a deep well - I don't know if it's ever possible to truly get to the bottom of it. Even stuff I've read in the Unfinished Tales and the first part of The History of Middle Earth needs re-reading now that I've read more.
I'm so thrilled that you've found Tolkien, Lyanness. You just keep asking away when you find something puzzling - they are all conversation starters and we all find something new every time!
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:54 am
by marbretherese
To return for a moment to the subject of Beorn, I found this quote by Tolkien while reading "The Monsters and the Critics" on the train this morning:
beorn meant 'warrior' , or in heroic poetry 'man' . . . beorn was still a form of the word 'bear'
He was talking about the Anglo-Saxon word
beorn which appears in the ancient poem
Beowulf . Tolkien worked on a revised translation of this poem in the 1930's. So in
The Hobbit he has used this word as the real name of a character who is a man, a warrior, and who can turn himself into a bear!
Clever, huh?
Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:15 pm
by Merry
Yes! Thanks--it's good to know that!
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:21 pm
by Lindariel
That's wonderful marbretherese!
I've mentioned this a while ago, but it would probably be good to bring it up again at this point in our discussion. For those of you who appreciate the philological aspects of
The Hobbit and
LOTR, I cannot express strongly enough how much you would enjoy David Day's
The Hobbit Companion. It is not at all what you would expect -- someone holding your hand and guiding you through the story. It is a highly entertaining -- particularly the lovely, interesting, and whimsical illustrations by the marvelous Lidia Postma -- examination of the words and names associated with hobbits and how their multiple philological meanings contribute to the depth of the story.
One lovely example involves Bilbo:
For in The Hobbit we find Bilbo Baggins the burglar is hired by the Dwarves to bag the Dragon's treasure. He then becomes the baggage man who carries off the loot. However, after the death of the Dragon and because of a dispute after the Battle of Five Armies, Bilbo Baggins becomes the bag man who collects the whole treasure together and distributes it among the victors.
Bilbo Baggins the Bourgeois = Burgher = Burglar = Baggage Man = Bag Man = Bilbo Baggins the Hero
What is in a name? In the name Baggins we have a Baggins who was a borough-burrow-dwelling bourgeois burgher who, by hiring himself out as a professional burglar, baggage man, and bag man, became that most un-Hobbitish of creatures: a hero.
He does similarly wonderful things with Hobbits/Goblins = Gollum, as well as really eye-opening stuff with the names of the various hobbit clans, founders, place names, etc.
Ultimately, Day shows us that the name hobbit, actually the root "hob" -- alone unerringly associates hobbits -- and especially Bilbo and Frodo -- with rings and a ring quests. You will REALLY enjoy it!
Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 4:25 pm
by marbretherese
Adding it to my wish-list now . . .!

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:49 am
by Philipa

I've mentioned it here as well. I friend gave this book to me after she learned I enjoyed all things Tolkien. I've always been pleased with it myself.
Another book I will have to scan some day to add some illustration discussions on fire again is the
Annotated Hobbit edited by Douglas A. Anderson. I found this book on a remainder table for next to nothing. The illustrations are from different editions of the Hobbit from around the world. The artists are amazingly diverse which lends an interesting twist to this edition. Tolkien's sketches are also included.
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:38 am
by Lindariel
I have that book as well Philipa, and like you, I picked it up at a used book store for just a few dollars. Well worth having for the illustrations and footnoes alone!
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:06 pm
by Iolanthe
Wonderful - thank you

. Is there no end to enjoyable Tolkien reading? Just as I'd reduced my 'still to-read' pile of Tolkien criticism under the coffee table to just one book

.
Back to Beorn.
The Ring of Words: Gilliver, Marshall and Weiner (dig out your copies, Merry and Mabreterese) has a section on 'bee-hunter and skin-changer':
Bear bee-hunter, boar the fighter
The line comes from Treebeard's roll of living creatures.....
The key can be found in R.W. Chambers' Beowulf: An Introduction (third edition, 1963). Chambers observes (p.365) that the obvious interpretation of the name Beowulf is 'wolf (or foe) of the bee.' Many who have accepted this interpretation nevertheless could not see a reason for the hero to have this name, but Chambers asserts that 'bee-foe' simply means 'bear': 'The bear has got a name, or nickname, in many northern languages from his habit of raiding the hives for honey.' That Tolkien had assimilated this idea is clear from the Elvish word for bear, megli, which is a compound word meaning 'honey-eater'. The bear, in the legends of Scandinavia, Finnish, Sami (Lapp) and Slavonic peoples, is regarded with awe and thought to have human understanding and enormous strength; hence 'bear' is an excellent name for an epic hero. '" bee-hunter"' writes Chambers, 'is then a satisfactory explanation for Beowulf.' (Chambers' book was forst published in 1921; Tolkien's own lecture on 'Beowulf: the Monsters and the Critics' was given in 1936, when The Hobbit was in the making.
Chambers' also points out that the Old Norse for 'bear', bjorn (which is ultimately realated to 'bear') seems to have an exact cognate in the Old English word beorn. In Old English, this word meant not 'bear' but 'warrior, a hero, a man of valour............ the entymological ambivalence of Beorn's name is translated by Tolkien into narrative, for at night Beorn the mighty man changes his shape from human form to that of a huge black, bear. Another allusion to the legendary background lies in the beehives which surround Beorn's hall and the honey which he mostly lives on.
They also come up with this quote from Gandalf that answers Lyanness's question. Beorn is a
black bear

:
'[Beorn] is a skin-changer: sometimes he is a huge black bear, sometimes he is a great strong black-haired man'
Gandalf - The Hobbit
They also talk about skin-changers, saying the diversity of Beorn's name reflects what he is - a skin-changer and quote Gordon's
Introduction to Old Norse:
In the extract, Gordon explains the origin of the Old Norse word berserkr (from which English beserk is derived): 'Beserks were probably named "bear-shirts" from a superstition that they were "skin-changers"'. Gordon also says that a beserkr was a 'wild warrior on whom a fighting-rage descended like madness' and that it was probably believed that 'they got superhuman strength from their animal nature.' This accords well with Beorn's spectacular wrath at the Battle of the Five Armies.
Gawd - that was a lot of typing

.
What huge knowledge and riches Tolkien has hidden in a single name!
See what an interesting conversation you've sparked off with your questions, Lyanness?
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:43 pm
by Merry
This is great input, everybody! Thanks for all the typing.

Tolkien is indeed a bottomless well--there is always something more to learn.
(By the by, Iolanthe, I never bought the book by the OED guys: I was so put off by their anti-religious diatribe at our last session at Exeter that I decided they could go on existing without my royalty money. But your contribution on Beorn is terrific and I'm undoubtedly missing out on some good insights because of my stiff neck!)
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:56 pm
by Iolanthe
I don't blame you - I bought the book at the Conference before Gilliver let rip in the last session. I have to say, though, that their whole section on Tolkien words is fascinating and very well researched.
Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:17 pm
by Merry
Ha! Perhaps some day I will find it in the bargain bin! Speaking of which, The Annotated Hobbit is on sale at a deep discount (around $7) on the Barnes and Noble website, in case anyone is interested.
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:13 pm
by lyanness
"only" $7 translates to about R50 plus shipping charges around R20-R30.
I'm immigrating to Canada in about a year's time and I CANT WAIT as I would be able to be able to get many more Tolkien items without worrying about the terrible currency of the country.
I really envy all of you

with the means to get much more Tolkien material than I can get my grubby paws on down south. There are no Tolkien books anymore, except one or two copies of the Children of the Hurin.
My time of getting more Tolkien knowledge is coming soon.....

Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:39 pm
by Merry
We are certainly lucky to have so much available here--thanks for the reminder of that, lyanness!