Discussing The Hobbit

[Iolanthe]

My time of getting more Tolkien knowledge is coming soon.....

In the meantime you've got us .

I'll never complain about having too big a pile of Tolkien related books to read again!

[lyanness]

I would like to ask another question that would have the more experienced Tolkienites laughing at me.

When the dwarves, Bilbo and Goblins were in the cave after visiting Elrond - around the middle of the book - the crack at the back of the cave opened enough to capture the ponies, and eventually the rest of them.

Concerning the crack in the wall:

- would that have been a door in the wall, such as at the walls of Moria that was invisible on inspection by Gandalf? Although that couldn't be as the goblins didn't have as much skill as the dwarves to make a wall as invisible as the walls of Moria, could it?

- How could a "crack in the wall" open and then close again. Any suggestions on what the professor meant?

Concerning the giants that were hurling stones at one another during the storm:

- were there giants like that in Middle Earth? According to Scandinavian mythology, on which a heng of a lot of LoTR stuff is based, the land of the giants existed (fire giants as well as ice giants), but they lived on a different root of the tree of the universe (those who know about scandinavian mythology will know what I'm refering to) and could not cross to middle earth. The land of the elves also existed on a different root and once the last elves left middle earth - as in LoTR - the pathway between the land of the elves and that of Middle Earth was permanently shut. If Tolkien's ideas were based on Scandinavian and Germanic mythology, how could there be Giant's in Middle Earth?

Any suggestions?

[Iolanthe]

I know that although Tolkien used some of the Scandanavian legends as a basis for his mythology, Middle-earth is different in that all the peoples of Middle-earth are born there and are of one world. In Scandinavian mythology men, elves, dwarves, giants are all in separate worlds - different roots of the World Tree, as you said. But in Tolkien's world elves, men, dwarves, Hobbits and, I presume, Giants are all born in Middle-earth. The Elves are called over the sea to a land prepared for them by the Valar because the Valar loved them so much, but the first elves were born in Middle-earth the same as men. Aule created the dwarves - but they came to life by Iluvatar's will in Middle-earth the same as all the other peoples there.

I don't remember Tolkien ever saying much about the Giants. There is no mention of Giants in LotR although there is a wonderful one in Farmer Giles of Ham. He doesn't seem to have included them in his more serious, adult books although maybe Giants and Trolls are one and the same .

The Ecyclopedia of Arda has an interesting piece on the mystery of giants in Tolkien's mythology. It doesn't mention the possibility that Trolls and Giants are one and the same...

As for the crack in the wall - I always assumed it was a sort of magic but reading it all again it could be a clever mechanism. Tolkien explains that although the goblins can't make anything beautiful they 'make many clever ones'. They can also tunnel and mine nearly as well as the dwarves so I'm supposing (as Tolkien doesn't say any different) that they made these caves and tunnels rather then living in a dwarven city like Moria in LotR. Tolkien also says it's likely they 'invented some of the machines that have since trouble the world...' although the goblins in the book haven't advanced that far yet.

I'm going for a clever, stone moving mechanism!

[Merry]

Another little jab from Tolkien about machinery!

I think, too, that The Hobbit is much more a children's story and not meant necessarily to have the 'feigned history' feel that LOTR does. Children, maybe, just accept caves that swallow people and giants that thrown stones, without question. On the other hand, I've read that Tolkien came to regret the childish nature of that book and wished he had written it more like LOTR.

[lyanness]

Interesting suggestions. Very interesting suggestions indeed. Thank you for that.

I think I need to concentrate on one book at a time. I've finished writing exams in my post-grad course, so I'm trying to make up for lost time by reading the Hobbit, LoTR and the Silmarillion at once. If I hadnt done that, I would know more of the Silmarillion and the history of Middle Earth than I do. Thanks for your insight, Iolanthe.

Mechanism at the back of the cave. That is it! Nothing that I could conjure up in my imagination made any sense, but as soon as I read that, it clicked.

Before I knew about Tolkien, I was completely fascinated about Scandinavian Mythology, now after reading up on that, I need to forget about it and concentrate on the Prof's world so that this confusion can come to an end.

[marbretherese]

I think I need to concentrate on one book at a time. I've finished writing exams in my post-grad course, so I'm trying to make up for lost time by reading the Hobbit, LoTR and the Silmarillion at once.

I think concentrating on one book at a time is a very good idea, Lyanness! I was familiar with The Hobbit as a child, came to LOTR as a teenager, and only read The Sil a couple of years ago. And I freely admit, if I'd read The Sil first, I doubt I would have got any further!

The background mythology was not particularly apparent in The Hobbit, as Merry has pointed out - some of the characters that carry over into LOTR only gained their significance within that mythology as Tolkien developed the story. And he constantly revised the background mythology to fit the events in LOTR!

[Lindariel]

Lyanness, you would probably also enjoy visiting The Encyclopedia of Arda online at www.glyphweb.com/arda . Lots of good information there in a handy-dandy encyclopedic/dictionary format. The only thing to keep in mind is that they occasionally "editorialize" and make some assumptions (mostly reasonable) about the Professor's intentions or attempt to interpret some of the Professor's more cryptic statements.

When in doubt, I always try to check their entries against the Professor's original words. A recent example is the discussion we just had in the LOTR thread about whether Aragorn chose the alias Thorongil or whether it was chosen for him by the men of Gondor. The Encyclopedia of Arda says that Aragorn chose the name, but a careful reading of the Professor's entry about this in the LOTR Appendices leaves the matter open to various interpretations.

Generally, however, it is a VERY good source of information. I visit there all the time!

[lyanness]

Encyclopaedia of Arda.
Browsed there briefly a few months ago and completely forgot about it until now. Thanx all for mentioning it again. I will definately have a much lengthened peak this time.

[Philipa]

lyanness I thought you may like to read a bit of an article I've just placed in the Tolkien news thread. I'm not sure you read all the threads here but this article is about a book coming out called THE HISTORY OF THE HOBBIT, Part One: Mr. Baggins by John D. Rateliff.

Here is a snippet;

In Tolkien's first draft, Gollum is a bumbling, web-footed monster who is actually more honourable than Bilbo. When Bilbo wins the riddle contest, Gollum feels bound by his word to give Bilbo his ring of invisibility, although, unbeknown to him, Bilbo has already found it.

It wouldn't be until nearly 17 years later that Tolkien would rewrite Gollum as the twisted ring-bearer who brings Sauron's ring to Bilbo and Frodo.

There are other major insights. In plot notes, Tolkien intended for Bilbo to sneak into Smaug's lair and kill the dragon with a spear "as he sleeps." But, as Rateliff surmises, Tolkien decided the story's moral code might be better served were Smaug to be smote down "in the midst of his villainy," terrorizing the lake town Esgaroth.

Gandalf the wizard goes by the name Bladorthin in the first draft. Thorin Oakenshield, the dwarf leader, goes by the name Gandalf. Smaug is "Pryftan" in the earliest pages. Bilbo refers to "real" places like the Gobi Desert, showing that Tolkien had yet to imagine Middle-earth as a unique universe existing before recorded history.

The whole article can be found here.

[Merry]

Thanks for this, Philipa--you keep us up to date! I read the whole article in the other thread, but I want to mention here that I think that it is significant that Tolkien didn't want Bilbo to assassinate a sleeping Smaug. We had a big argument over at WRoR about Tolkien's use of violence, and I think his ethical sense allowed the good guys only to use violence in defense. So this is good to know!

[Iolanthe]

Tolkien's instincts are, as always, spot on. I think it also shows how The Hobbit was growing from just a slight tale to amuse the children into something more important. Still a tale for children but much more than just a piece of nonsense.

And ulitmately the Bilbo that killed a sleeping Dragon just because he could would have ruined our idea of hobbits as capable of becoming world saviours through pity and self-sacrifice. He would have had a lot more extensive re-writing to do to prepare us the likes of Frodo and his quest!

[lyanness]

oh my gosh, thanx so much Phillipa!!!

I thoroughly enjoy learning, and when it comes to Tolkien there is so much to learn.

I do feel like setting a Nazgul on him for saying that Tolkien's stories are boring. The so called "boring" books like the Silmarilion are COMPLETELY necessary to create the world that Tolkien had in mind. I read the hobbit about a year ago. Nice, cute story. THEN - I read (parts of, still digging through it) the Silmarillion and read the Hobbit again - and was completely blown away. The so called "boring" books are completely necessary (as I mentioned before) to create an ocean of depth to his tales - not just creating nice stories, but creating a wealth of background in one's mind while one reads the tale to let the wealth thereof shine through.

Tolkien's method is an absolute inspiration for aspiring novelists like myself.

[Iolanthe]

I think a lot of critics just can't cope with the variety of Tolkien's writing. Stylistically LotR isn't like The Hobbit, The Hobbit isn't like Smith of Wootton Major, nothing is like The Silmarillion...

He refuses to be put in any kind of a box and I think that people of little imagination just can't cope with the fact he can't be pinned down. He was more successful than anyone in creating an entire world but he had many ways of presenting it. It seeped into everything.

[Merry]

Good point, Iolanthe, especially about how 'people with little imagination' don't get it.

[lyanness]

OH MY GOSH, GUESS WHAT I FOUND IN THE BOOKSHOP DURING MY SHOPPING YESTERDAY?

The history of the Hobbit by that character that we were discussing earlier
It must have reached our bookshop within a week and a half (we only have 1 bookshop franchise that stocks Tolkien (and many other interesting books - if any of the forum wishes to visit South Africa in the future) called Exclusive Books. (I promise, I'm not doing any free advertising, just posting this for information's sake)

Now is that fate/coincidence or what?

I considered buying it on the spot, but it costs R350 and since we had such a heated discussion about the book earlier , I just wanted to ask the forum:

Is it worth getting?