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Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:07 pm
by Iolanthe
:lol: Some Tolkien geekdom is just too easy to satire 8) .

I've never though of searching for Tolkien on Youtube. You're right about the other vids, Philipa. I never thought there was a recording of Tolkien reciting 'One Ring to rule them all...':

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:03 pm
by Philipa
Iolanthe wrote:
I've never though of searching for Tolkien on Youtube. You're right about the other vids, Philipa. I never thought there was a recording of Tolkien reciting 'One Ring to rule them all...':
It's a beauty isn't it? To bad we don't have a media library. :twisted:

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:22 pm
by Philipa
We were given a heads up of this BBC interview from 1964 on OneRing.net. You can listen to the interview and read a partial transcript on Baren's site The Tolkien Library :D

Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:54 am
by Merry
Thanks, Philipa. And Beren--great job! It's fun to hear and read Tolkien impromptu. I mean, his writing is so superb, and so it's fun to see what he has to say when he hasn't had twenty years to think about it. I love the answer to the question about whether he has particular fondness for home and fire and bed: "Don't you?"

Also, the interviewer doesn't seem to know how to follow up on his declaration of being a devout Roman Catholic, does he?

Edited to add: He is rather hard to understand, isn't he? I have heard conflicting reports on this: some of his students have said that it was impossible to understand his lectures, yet I talked to one of his former students, an American, last summer, who said that it was never an issue. I wonder if his diction got worse as he aged. He is also talking through his pipe through much of this interview!

Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:31 am
by Iolanthe
Maybe he made more effort to project in his lectures which would, at least have got rid of the mumbling. But he sure does talk quickly :shock: . Thank goodness for Beren.

I'm going to have to listen to it again now I've got a better idea what he's saying. What a gem :D .

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:31 pm
by Airwin
I just listened to the interview, and I can safely say that I would have lost track of what the professor says if it hadn't been for Beren's transcript. Thanks so much! :flower:

I assume those grammatical errors have been corrected in reprints. :wink:

Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:50 am
by Merry
This isn't about an article, but rather a blog: I just found that noted Tolkien scholar and Beowulf expert Michael Drout has been maintaining a blog:

http://wormtalk.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html

Interesting name, isn't it? Much of it is Tolkien-related; all of it is smart!

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:10 am
by Iolanthe
What a great find and full of interesting stuff :D . I've bookmarked it so I can keep up!

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:15 am
by Philipa
Playing catch up this evening. Nice find Merry. I love his political post. :lol:

From Babel to Barad-Dur

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:20 pm
by Philipa
Most interesting read with fascinating use of images:

FROM BABEL TO BARAD-DÛR

Or a Tale of Two Towers: Art and Archetypes in Middle-Earth

Tolkien's Middle-Earth is conspicuous in that it contains no places of worship.


Few fantasy authors resist the urge to have temples and gods (usually malevolent ones with slimy and unappetizing minions, against which the hero uses guile, good sense or solid biceps in contests of thinly-disguised allegory). Tolkien limits himself to places of portent or places of wonder - places where the gods or great personages of the past have touched the earth, but have never consecrated.

While Tolkien's demiurges intervene in human and Elven affairs, they do so with the immediacy and sudden familiarity of the Greek gods. When Ulmo meets Tuor, he does not appear from some aperture in the clouds, complete with god-rays, he strides out of the surf of the Sea near Vinyamar, water dripping from his scaled armour. (It is painfully revealing of our Judeo-Christian heritage and largely inadequate imaginations that we always expect divine intervention to come from on high - deus ex machina suspended on cables and pulleys over our small world-stage - the gods that people pantheons can be anywhere: in a tree, under a stone, or before us on the road.) Nor does Tuor kneel humbly, his deference and his defiance are contained in the same gesture. They inhabit different worlds that touch on occasion, and cribbing for salvation is not part of the Tolkien mythos. Another opportunity to abandon classical modes of representation (and our pavlovian fall-back reflexes) and explore new ways of depicting the meetings of men and gods.

I have always been struck by the similarity between Babel and Barad-dûr. Tall, easy to see from afar, Babel is a good landmark to start from. A good time? The 16th century.

That the Bible be the inspiration is incidental, the concern here is not the religious context, but the visual one, (despite the curiously truncated and illogical moral that is intended to guide the reader). Nor does the historical Babel, the Etemenanki, enter into consideration; the archaeological Babylon was as yet unexcavated, the allegorical Babylon, though, was very real. The vast and repetitive architecture of Babel prefigures the Industrial Age as clearly as the invention of the steam engine centuries later. The inhumanity implied by the monstrous construction, as well as the folly, are inherent in the moral.

Medieval representations of the Tower of Babel are tame affairs, handy catalogues of stone-mason's skills, complete with cranes and pulleys. The colours of the images are of a brighter hue, pathos is not part of the palette. With the Northern Renaissance and the Baroque, an entirely new tone is adopted. The new régime of point-of-view perspective and the omniscient vanishing point is suddenly skewed to accommodate the gigantic structure. (Some of the later paintings convey a physical illusion of tri-dimensionality not unlike the work of Vasarely - both from a time when the absence of handy computer programs left such exploits in the imperfect - but human - hands of he artist.) The workers are ants, reduced to the status of ants, toiling endlessly towards a summit that has no precedent in painting. Only those depictions of the tower that leave it a silhouette in the far distance afford the viewer a comfortable spot to stand. All the other paintings, which grapple with the incommodious spiral ramp, or diagonal avenues of the construction site itself, seem unable - or unwilling - to tell the viewer exactly where he stands. Fixing the eye on a series of details yanks the viewpoint forward or shoves it back in a curious and discomforting fashion. This dichotomy of detail and ensemble is inherent in all of Tolkien's descriptions of Barad-dûr.
to continue article visit John Howe's newsletter Chronicles.

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:27 pm
by Iolanthe
You can always rely on John Howe to come up with some really interesting stuff! Thanks Philipa :D .
On a clear day, from the top of the Tower of Babel, you can see Barad-dûr.

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:39 pm
by Philipa
Yes, there are some real gem quotes in there. :lol:

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:55 pm
by Merry
I'm not sure I understand all of this. What's the 'curiously truncated and illogical moral'?

You know, Christians also think our God can be found in a manger and at a wedding feast and with tax collectors and prostitutes and on a cross. This makes Ulmo's appearance still a little pretentious, in my mind. :wink:

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:04 am
by Philipa
And interesting article from thehoya.com
Tolkien and Man's Most Regrettable Feature
By Fr. James V. Schall S.J.

On May 13, 1964, J. R. R. Tolkien wrote a letter to Colin Bailey about his unfinished story “The New Shadow.” The story began about 100 years after the fall of Mordor (the dominion of the villain Sauron in “The Lord of the Rings”), thus in presumably happy times. Tolkien told Bailey, however, that he did not finish the story because it was too “sinister and depressing.” One would think that, after the fall of Mordor, things would be looking up. Tolkien’s reason for not continuing such a story was that things might be even worse than they were before.

What was behind Tolkien’s hesitation to finish his story? The title of the story, “The New Shadow,” may have come from Plato — the shadows in the cave — or from the shadow cast upon the earth by Satan’s part in the fall of man. Tolkien gives this reason: “Since we are dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good.” It’s like saying that the good is not “good enough” for us. We might wonder why.

So the people of Gondor (Tolkien’s land of men), in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become “discontented and restless.” Notice that Tolkien does not place the fault in Gondor as a place. Evidently, it would not matter where it happened — regardless, the best condition turns out to be the most dangerous condition. G. K. Chesterton had earlier said that we are more likely to lose our souls if we are rich than if we are poor, even though the poor can also lose theirs for the same reason — that is, by what they choose to do.

The words of Tolkien are striking: “We are dealing with Men.” We are not dealing with hobbits, who, I believe, could live in reasonable prosperity. Here, precisely the condition that we seek for ourselves — peace and prosperity — is pictured as the most morally dangerous atmosphere for our human condition. Some Romans worried that if the Empire destroyed Carthage, they would be in moral danger without an enemy to keep them disciplined. We are perplexed by this type of situation. We think that our problems will be over when we have a sufficiency of things. We look outside, not inside, of ourselves for what can go wrong and why.

I mentioned Plato: He was convinced that our desires are unlimited. They drive us on to more and more unless we hold them in place. It was Augustine who poignantly discovered in his very living that the “good things” he chose could be turned away from their natural purpose by how he used them.

In considering this “regrettable feature of [our] nature,” Tolkien thought that the story of “The New Shadow” would have to go this way: “I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage.” This passage is almost directly out of Aristotle, who said the same thing less graphically. The “revolutionary plots” were directed at the goodness of being. The “Satanistic religion” made man God.

“I could have written a ‘thriller’ about the plot and its discovery and overthrow,” Tolkien adds, “but it would be just that. Not worth doing.” What might Tolkien have meant here? He could have written a thriller in which the plots of these young men are discovered and overthrown. Still, it was “not worth doing.” Why was this story not worth finishing, while writing “The Lord of the Rings” was worth finishing? What was the difference?

“Their quick satiety with the good” is given as the reason for the “most regrettable” thing about the nature of men. One must look long and hard at such an affirmation. The question is: Is this “quick satiety” with the “good” such a bad thing? Augustine, of course, is witness to its factuality. All finite things are good. We are given minds to see that goodness in them.

Our nature is such that we never find complete satiety in anything less than that for which we were put into existence in the first place. And this end is not just one more finite good, no matter how good it is. The “Satanistic” part constitutes a turning away from the good that is there, even if not complete, to a “good” that we make ourselves. This story has been repeated so often in our kind that we should by now have learned the lesson. The reason Tolkien did not finish the story is that we should already know these things from our own experience.

© The Hoya, Georgetown University


Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:49 am
by Iolanthe
Interesting, Philipa! In many ways I'm glad Tolkien didn't write that story - in the same way that I never wanted the Lord of the Rings to end I don't want all the good that was achieved to end, impossible as that is. I want to be left in a Middle-earth that ends with 'Well, I'm back' not one with 'Well, I've got to go again' even though it would be other generations.

The story Tolkien outlined would have been a case of history repeating itself - Numenor fell because they grew tired of the good things they had, worshipped Morgoth, built a satanic temple, and believed Sauron's lies about the West. He would have been retelling the tale post LotR. After leaving Numenor the faithful Numenorians had already gone through a second cycle of rise and fall. After the fourth age starts and King Elessar comes to sweep away Sauron and the cobwebs another cycle would be “sinister and depressing” indeed. I'm glad we never had it.