Middle-earth Journeys

Hi, Philipa--thanks for the invitation! I think I agree with you and Tolkien in principle. But isn't it often the case that one side blames a war on the other side, saying that they're only defending ourselves? In Eowyn's case, clearly Saruman's orcs are the aggressors, but in the real world it is not always so clear.

But when I said in the other thread that I wasn't sure everything in Eowyn's speech was true, I was thinking more of the second part. I think it is always good to be healed in body and always a bad thing for someone to die in battle.

It certainly is from our perspective, but, of course, it's a part of the early cultures that Tolkien based Rohan on. The idea of a 'glorious death in battle' runs through all the early literature that fed Tolkien's imagination. So different from the reality of The Great War but not extinguished by it. He still clearly thought there was a place for it.

And Eowyn is in despair, of course, driven by a death wish that makes even her recovey unwelcome until she falls in love with Faramir. But putting that aside the statement was a truth for her. It was true that it was not, at that time, good to be healed in body but not in mind. And true that a death in battle was, for her, both a solution and something glorious and useful. A personal and not an ultimate truth, I suppose, with later events showing which is the most powerful.

Don't ask me to define personal truth and Ultimate Truth .

Funny but it is the attitude of Eowyn during her stay in the House of Healing that makes me just want slap her. To commiserate over Aragorn, in fact she does admit to wanting to be a queen or to die gloriously. How self serving is that? I didn't like her character at all.

I can understand, I guess, why someone might feel as Eowyn did and so why some cultures might feel that way. But I think it's important to note that Tolkien heals her of this, and we're glad about that, right? I think we all like Spunky Eowyn better, who teases Faramir about why he doesn't marry a Gondorian woman and who announces (and does not ask permission) that she will go back to Rohan to aid in its restoration before marrying.

Philipa, did you like her better when she said, 'Begone, foul dwimmerlaik'?

I think Eowyn believed she only had two honorable choices to escape what she regarded as an unbearable life in Rohan:

(1) To die in battle defending her King and her people; or

(2) To marry an eligible man of appropriate rank whom she admires. As Princess of Rohan, she has NO options for such a marriage within the borders of Rohan; all of the men she knows are of lower rank or are too closely related to her. Other than Boromir, whom she learns has died during the course of this quest, Aragorn is probably the first man she has ever met who could possibly meet those criteria. Given this reality, I don't think her desire to be Aragorn's Queen came from a wish to aggrandize herself. Indeed, I think she clung desperately to this option until it became plain that it was completely untenable because she did NOT want to die. Her final conversation with Aragorn before he takes the Paths of Dead pretty much boils down to "You are a heroic and eligible man I deeply admire. Please, for Bema's sake, GET ME OUT OF HERE!"

Staying unmarried is not an option. Eowyn is the sole remaining female from the line of Eorl. She MUST marry, just as Eomer MUST marry, and their marriages must be of the highest order. In reality, her only possible choices for a marriage of suitable rank would be Aragorn, who is already pledged, Boromir, who is dead, Faramir, whom she has never met and may not even know exists, possibly Halbarad, who dies on the Pelennor Fields, or one of the sons of Prince Imrahil.

The poor girl really has very few options left from her point of view, and I can completely see why she is just a tad "slappable" from time to time.

Merry wrote:

Philipa, did you like her better when she said, 'Begone, foul dwimmerlaik'?

I had a difficult time even pronouncing 'dwimmerlaik', I bet it must have felt good for her to say it though.

Lindariel I think you're right on with the circumstances of Eowyn and her options. But it still drove me crazy just from the perspective of the reading. I can honestly say the same was thought of by Catherine of Wuthering Heights.

On the same vein I wonder what the thought process was for tolkien to barely even mention the connection between Aragorn and Arwen. Not enough time maybe?

I think I remember reading somewhere that the Aragorn/Arwen story came much later in Tolkien's developmental process. Even so, I remember on my first reading (at age ten!) feeling the electric connection between them when we are first introduced to Arwen at Rivendell. There is no doubt that Aragorn is taken.

Merry wrote: I remember on my first reading (at age ten!) feeling the electric connection between them when we are first introduced to Arwen at Rivendell. There is no doubt that Aragorn is taken.

I like your phrase "electric connection", Merry. I think the link between Aragorn and Arwen comes across as all the more profound for not being spelled out in LOTR , even if that was not Tolkien's specific intention. It hovers just under the surface and becomes tantalisingly pervasive. I first read the book as an adolescent and was just longing to know the story behind the story, as it were (of course, my romantic streak was satisfied once I got to the appendices ).

I think I remember reading somewhere that the Aragorn/Arwen story came much later in Tolkien's developmental process.

That explains a lot then Merry.


Having gone and read the Appendix A regarding Aragorn, Arwen and Elrond again, it brings home the sadness of the outcome of Arwen's self appointed demise.

I just went back to skim through the chapter entitled 'Many Meetings' to find the text that described Aragorn and Arwen in the Hall of Fire. To my surprise, there is very little. Aragorn was not present during the feast, but shows up later, and Bilbo asks him why he missed the feast, throwing in that the Lady Arwen was there. After that, as Frodo and Bilbo leave the Hall for some more private chat . . .

Frodo halted for a moment, looking back. Elrond was in his chair and the fire was on his face like summer-light upon the trees. Near him sat the Lady Arwen. To his surprise Frodo saw that Aragorn stood beside her; his dark cloak was thrown back, and he seemed to be clad in elven-mail, and a star shone on his breast. They spoke together, and then suddenly it seemed to Frodo that Arwen turned towards him, and the light of her eyes fell on his from afar and pierced his heart.

Not much, is it? But I think it is powerful because Tolkien has identified Aragorn as a courtly lover, and that's a strong archetype in our minds and hearts.

Philipa, if we go along with Garth's hypothesis that the Great War is to be found at the bottom of a lot of LOTR, I wonder if some of Arwen's sadness is that of a war widow or even of his own wife waiting for him to come back when so many never did. Beyond this, though, I think he was acutely aware that all earthly love eventually ends in loss, one way or the other.

I just went back to skim through the chapter entitled 'Many Meetings' to find the text that described Aragorn and Arwen in the Hall of Fire. To my surprise, there is very little.

Yes, and the only other information we get in the story itself is the brief mention at Cerin Amroth when Aragorn shouts 'Arwen vanimelda, namarie!' Well actually doesn't Galadriel mention something when parting with Aragorn too? But you see what I mean.

Philipa, if we go along with Garth's hypothesis that the Great War is to be found at the bottom of a lot of LOTR, I wonder if some of Arwen's sadness is that of a war widow or even of his own wife waiting for him to come back when so many never did.

I'm sure but I think the sadness which is conveyed in the appendix is as we know Elrond would not have Aragorn as a son-in-law until he became king and then she was doomed to linger in M-e even after Aragorn's death until she wasted away on Cerin Amroth.

Beyond this, though, I think he was acutely aware that all earthly love eventually ends in loss, one way or the other.

Yes quite right, I think so too.

Once this discussion is through, I've found an interesting coincidence also found in the appendix I just want to run by you most knowledgable folk.

The only thing I can add to the Aragorn and Arwen theme before we move on to this tantalising coincidence is the fact that Arwen's arrival at Minas Tirith is the culmination of Aragorn's hopes. We are left in no doubt at that point how important she is and great their love is.

The sapling of the White Tree is the sign he's been looking for - he sets watchmen on the walls as soon as he finds it - and when Arwen finally arrives on Midsummers eve Frodo says:

'At last I understand why we have waited! This is the ending...'

The misummer marriage is the true culmination, not the Coronation. Nothing is complete until she arrives. Although their relationship isn't given any depth and detail in the book up to that point here Tolkien suddenly unveils it's true significance. It's a confident author who can reveal the climax to Aragorn's journey as something hardly mentioned up until that point. He's relying on that 'depth of background' that always tells us that there is always more than meets the eye and he actually gets away with it. I think he owes us the appendix after that one!!!

The description of the scene Frodo witnesses between Arwen and Aragorn in the Hall of Fire has always intrigued me:

Frodo halted for a moment, looking back. Elrond was in his chair and the fire was on his face like summer-light upon the trees. Near him sat the Lady Arwen. To his surprise Frodo saw that Aragorn stood beside her; his dark cloak was thrown back, and he seemed to be clad in elven-mail, and a star shone on his breast. They spoke together, and then suddenly it seemed to Frodo that Arwen turned towards him, and the light of her eyes fell on him from afar and pierced his heart.

WHO is Arwen looking at in this scene? The use of pronouns is just confusing enough to make it possible to interpret this scene two ways:

(1) Aragorn is standing BESIDE Arwen, and they are speaking together without looking at each other. At some point in the conversation, Arwen looks over at Aragorn, and the look in her eyes pierces Aragorn's heart. In other words, Frodo sees in this moment the love that Aragorn bears for Arwen.

(2) Aragorn and Arwen are speaking together. She becomes aware of Frodo's presence and looks over at Frodo. The look in her eyes pierces Frodo's heart. In other words, Frodo sees in her eyes the love she bears for Aragorn. The words "from afar" make this seem the most likely scenario, as Frodo is across the room from Arwen and Aragorn is right beside her. Also, this interpretation strictly follows proper prounoun usage, something I think the Professor would be picky about.

Either way, I think the Professor intends to convey that Frodo has come to some realization that there is a love relationship between Arwen and Aragorn. But if you aren't reading carefully, you would completely miss it -- it flies by so quickly.

And now, I'm most curious to hear about Philipa's discovery!

I have wondered about that passage, too, Lindariel, and I also think your second interpretation is the stronger one. So what could Aragorn have whispered to Arwen that caused her to cast such a piercing gaze onto Frodo? We can only guess, but I have always imagined that it was something akin to "He has the Ring, and so now it all begins: either our hope ends or is fulfilled."

There is so much subtle stuff going on in that brief scene. Perhaps Arwen's piercing look is one of pity and understanding - maybe knowing or guessing the path Frodo is about to take even though he doesn't yet know it himself?

Whatever the reason Frodo stands 'enchanted', I'm assuming in the old sense of the word - bound by a kind of magic - rather than thinking 'that's lovely' .

It's hearing 'A Elbereth Gilthoniel' that makes Frodo look back and although there's no translation in the book that tells us it's about the starkindler Varda we have a star shining on Aragorn's breast and we have the piercing light from Arwen's eyes - the Evenstar of her people. He then goes to Bilbo's room where they look through the window 'at the bright stars above the steep-climbing woods'.

Seems like star-enchantment all round!