Discussing The Hobbit

Discussion of The Hobbit: a good place for Tolkien beginners to start
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Philipa
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Post by Philipa »

Riv Res wrote: But, I also do not believe that the Professor was above having some fun as if saying..."Hey! Look what I can do with language." IMHO :D
No doubt. :D But if his goal was to create a mythological world for Great Britian langauges would be a huge part of making it authentic. As would his maps too. All to soon Tolkien was taken from his work. Can you imagine if he had the life of an Eldar and living 50 more years to work on his world? :D
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librislove
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Post by librislove »

Although I too would have liked Tolkien to have more time, I suspect he was the kind of world-builder whose work would just get deeper, richer, and more complex, with the same satisfactions, frustrations, and questions we now have with the body of his work still very much present in the additions. And it would never be finished! And you know what? Bring it on! I would not want it any other way.
Many live who deserve death; some die who deserve life--can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be so quick to deal out death in judgment. Even the wisest cannot see all ends.
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Post by Varda »

After the publishing of LoTR, Tolkien only wrote stories on a smaller scale such as The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. Did he ever consider continuing the story on into the Fourth Age other than the brief mentions in the appendices :?:

librislove~
I suspect he was the kind of world-builder whose work would just get deeper, richer, and more complex, with the same satisfactions, frustrations, and questions we now have with the body of his work still very much present in the additions. And it would never be finished! And you know what? Bring it on! I would not want it any other way.
I second that! That's what I feel the most sad about :( ...the story can't go on and on.
O Elbereth! Gilthomiel!
We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees,
Thy starlight on the Western Seas.
Riv Res
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Post by Riv Res »

Just a heads up that I moved the conversation about the sequel to LOTR and the Fourth Age to its own forum so that we can continue our discussion of The Hobbit here. :D
Philipa
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Post by Philipa »

The new forum is called The New Shadow.
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bruce rerek
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Post by bruce rerek »

Has the mirror effect of the Hobbit compared to the LOR been noticed? For instance, The Hobbit begins with an Unexpected Party the LOR A Long Expected Party. Frodo sets out of Rivendel at Winter and Bilbo at Spring. Bilbo will take the west gate of Moria, Frodo the east gate. There are many others and I am quite sure we wil cite them as we read.
The Balrog of Moria was released in 1980 Third Age and Moria was in ruin by the time the Dwarves would arrive with Bilbo. Ganldaf refers to Sauron as the Necromancer who had tortured and broke the mind of Thrain, Thorin's father. It was at great peril that Gandalf came to the map and key. He knows the extent of the evil they must face, yet he limits the task to the Dragon and the Mountain - to find our long-forggoten gold. Did know of the One Ring? Of Smeagol/Gollum?
Any takers?
Bruce
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Post by Riv Res »

Bruce, before I tackle another of your great 'riddles', can you clear up some confusion for me? I am unaware that Bilbo ever went to Moria. Are you perhaps refering to Erebor with Bilbo?
bruce rerek wrote: Bilbo will take the west gate of Moria, Frodo the east gate.
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Post by bruce rerek »

Confound my mistake, I thought Erebor was Moria, but such things happen. But I am still curious if Gandalf new about the creature Gollum and if Bilbo's quest was in part to check Sauron/The Necromancer to buy time.
Bruce
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Post by Riv Res »

Bruce, I believe it is actually is in Unfinished Tales, that Gandalf virtually admits that he sent Bilbo with Thorin so that Bilbo could find the Ring. How much he actually knew and how much was mere chance and conjecture is a little hazy. I believe that Tolkien liked it that way.

I do not remember reading anything that indicates Gandalf's prior knowledge of the existence of Gollum, but it was in TA 2850 that Gandalf went to Dol Guldur and learned that Sauron was trying to regain all of the Rings of Power and was indeed looking for the one Ring.

It is almost 100 years later when Gandalf sends Bilbo off with Thorin and at the same time, both Saruman and Sauron escalate their own plans to find the Ring. It is amazing to me how Tolkien took his little tale of The Hobbit, and made it the central and pivitol point for the launching of the War of the Ring and where he brought his entire mythology into alignment. It is as if he planned it for many long years.
Leggy
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Post by Leggy »

Riv Res wrote:Bruce, I believe it is actually is in Unfinished Tales, that Gandalf virtually admits that he sent Bilbo with Thorin so that Bilbo could find the Ring. How much he actually knew and how much was mere chance and conjecture is a little hazy. I believe that Tolkien liked it that way.
If Gandalf did know about the ring, one would have to accept that he did't know which ring it was. In LOTR he travels to look through the archives to find out which characteristics were on the ring and then checks with Frodo on his return.
If he knew that much about the ring back in The Hobbit's time, he would not have had to have done that. imho
What can you see on the horizon? Why do the white gulls call? Across the sea, the pale moone rises, the ships have come to carry you home.
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Post by Lindariel »

I agree, Leggy. As I recall, Gandalf's greater "plan" or "hope" for Thorin's rather rag-tag expedition was the elimination of Smaug, which would greatly diminish Sauron's power in the region of Erebor, and the re-establishment of the Kingdom Under the Mountain, as well as the Kingdom of Dale, both of which could then be cultivated as allies in the coming Great War. Recall that Dain's representatives to the Council of Elrond were his kinsman Gloin, renowned from Thorin's adventures, and Gloin's son Gimli, who went on to become a member of the Fellowship. Here is the description of Gandalf's initial meeting with Thorin from the LOTR Appendix A:
"Master Gandalf, I know you only by sight, but now I should be glad to speak with you. For you have often come into my thoughts of late, as if I were bidden to seek you. Indeed I should have done so, if I had known where to find you."

Gandalf looked at him with wonder. "That is strange, Thorin Oakenshield," he said. "For I have thought of you also; and though I am on my way to the Shire, it was in my mind that is the way also to your halls."

"Call them so, if you will," said Thorin. "They are only poor lodgings in exile. But you would be welcome there, if you would come. For they say that you are wise and know more than any other of what goes on in the world; and I have much on my mind and would be glad of your counsel."

"I will come," said Gandalf; "for I guess that we share one trouble at least. The Dragon of Erebor is on my mind, and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thror."

The story is told elsewhere of what came of that meeting: of the strange plan that Gandalf made for the help of Thorin, and how Thorin and his companions set out from the Shire on the quest of the Lonely Mountain that came to great ends unforeseen."
It is not often noted, but had it not been for the valor of the Kings and peoples of the Lonely Mountain, Erebor, and Dale, an enormous orc army would have swept over the North while our heroes were fighting on the Pelennor Fields. Again from the LOTR Appendix A:
So it was that when the War came at last the main assault was turned southwards; yet even so with his far-stretched right hand Sauron might have done great evil in the North, if King Dain and King Brand had not stood in his path. Even as Gandalf said afterwards to Frodo and Gimli, when they dwelt together for a time in Minas Tirith . . . .

"I grieved at the fall of Thorin . . . and now we hear that Dain has fallen, fighting in Dale again, even while we fought here. I should call that a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say that he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the Gate of Erebor until the darkness fell."

"Yet things might have gone far otherwise and far worse. When you think of the great Battle of the Pelennor, do not forget the battles in Dale and the valour of Durin's Folk. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here only to ruin and ash. But that has been averted -- because I met Thorin Oakshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree. A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle Earth."
Also, keep in mind that Gandalf's little "side-trip" away from Thorin's expedition was none other than the gathering of the White Council that drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur, not exactly a small undertaking. In addition, think of all the important allies Gandalf connected or reconnected with along the way -- Elrond and the elves of Rivendell, the Great Eagles, Beorn, Thranduil and the elves of Mirkwood, Bard and the people of Laketown/Dale, and Dain Ironfoot and his people who re-established the Kingdom Under the Mountain after Thorin's death.

Oh, Thorin's party also eliminated three trolls, killed the Great Goblin of the Misty Mountains, took on the great spiders of Mirkwood, and put into motion a series of events that culminated in the Battle of the Five Armies, which significantly reduced the orc and warg population in the area for quite some time.

No, I don't believe that Gandalf knew about Gollum until after Bilbo's encounter with him, though it thankfully started him thinking and wondering. Nonetheless, the finding of the Great Ring certainly could be called the icing on the cake for this little trip.

All-in-all, Gandalf's gamble on Thorin's "treasure hunt" certainly paid off handsomely!
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Riv Res
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Post by Riv Res »

Fabulous analysis Lindariel. But I have to ask...how much of this behind the scenes history was known to Tolkien as he wrote (the chidren's story) The Hobbit? What I find SO...SO...SO...incredible is that Tolkien was able to go back to The Hobbit and build his backstory for LOTR in such detail from slightest of occurances in his first book
bruce rerek
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Post by bruce rerek »

Dear fellow readers,

I have invited my cousin who is reading the Hobbit for the first time and getting his first taste of Tolkien to join us. Hopefuly, he will and please make him feel welcome.
Bruce
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Merry
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Post by Merry »

Any friend of yours is a friend of ours, Bruce!
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
Philipa
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Post by Philipa »

I look forward to meeting him bruce. We need some more male influences here. :wink:
Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!
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