Discussing The Hobbit

[Philipa]

Is it worth getting?

Terrific find lyanness. My rule of thumb for academic Tolkien books is if I can read a page of the book in the bookstore and it makes sense than I consider it. Also, if I know I won't read it all I won't buy it.

Let us know what becomes of your dilemma.

[Merry]

Interesting question! I try to borrow new Tolkien books from the library--we've got a great inter-library loan system--and read them first. Some books are fine to read once, but they're not keepers!

[lyanness]

Thanks for all replies

Unfortunately there are pitifully few library books regarding Tolkien in my area. I need to do more research regarding what's available in the rest of the country, but I'm not overly hopeful.

Unfortunately #2, the books are wrapped in plastic , so I cant read a page to test whether I should read it or not - clever ploy to make people buy the books, otherwise they would just read the books in the shop and use the bookshop as a library, I suppose. All the expensive books and informative books are covered in plastic.

I've learnt in my short life to always trust my instinct and that's what I think I will do in this case as well. I think that I should get the book. I have a feeling that when the books sell out it will be extremely difficult to get my grubby paws on a copy again.

P.S.:

{Gees, I shouldn't put my country down like I have been doing in the past. South Africa is not really that bad, it's priorities are just different from the rest of the world, and there's not much emphasis put on things that one cant put into practice in the real working world. It's usually only the rich and successful that have time for other activities that don't directly contribute to one's work or success, and are simply done for enjoyment purposes. I say usually as I am neither rich or successful, I just live in dreams and that's what Tolkien's writings feed }

[Iolanthe]

I've learnt in my short life to always trust my instinct and that's what I think I will do in this case as well. I think that I should get the book. I have a feeling that when the books sell out it will be extremely difficult to get my grubby paws on a copy again.

Instincts are good, lyanness, and who knows what things you'll discover .

[lyanness]

One more question that I think the mature Tolkienites would roll their eyes at but here I go anyway.

When the Dwarves escaped the "headquaters" of the elves in the Mirkwood forests, thanks to dear old Bilbo and that wonderful ring of his, how many days did they spend in the barrels?

I find it difficult to break down timelines of night and day in this passage.
I could be reading too fast and missing something.

Any suggestions?

[Iolanthe]

You've got me stumped, Lyanesse. I've just read it all through and it's very confusing. It seems to be through a night, a whole day and at least the start of another night. That seems like an awfully long time to be cooped-up in a barrel, to me .

[Lindariel]

Iolanthe, I believe you are correct about the timeline for the escape from the dungeons of the Wood-elves. Bilbo takes advantage of the opportunity presented by the passed-out-drunk butler and chief guard to steal the keys and rescue the dwarves from their cells. He packs them into some of the empty casks and barrels, which are dumped into the river sometime during the evening's celebrations. They float down the river during the night to a point where they are hauled in and roped together by another group of elves. In the morning, they are poled the rest of the way down the river to Laketown and moored by the bridge. As evening falls, Bilbo finally releases the poor dwarves from their confinement.

I get the biggest kick out of the relationship between Bilbo and the Dwarves during this part of the adventure. All the complaining and grumbling is quite funny, as are Bilbo's increasingly exasperated responses, especially his growing willingness to stand up to Thorin. I just love these little bits of hobbity snit:

"Very well!" said Bilbo very downcast, and also rather annoyed. "Come along back to your nice cells, and I will lock you all in again, and you can sit there comfortably and think of a better plan -- but I don't suppose I shall ever get hold of the keys again, even if I feel inclined to try."

and

"Well, are you alive or are you dead?" asked Bilbo quite crossly . . . . "Are you still in prison, or are you free? If you want food, and if you want to go on with this silly adventure -- it's yours after all and not mine -- you had better slap your arms and rub your legs and try and help me get the others out while there is a chance!"

Our little spider-killing hero is really coming into his own, and as the adventure progresses, the Dwarves begin to rely on Bilbo more and more to figure things out for them. This leads to Bilbo's ultimate act of defiance -- taking the Arkenstone and using it as a negotiating tactic to help bring an end to the impasse between the Dwarves and the combined forces of Laketown and the Woodland Realm.

[Iolanthe]

hobbity snit

That sums up his increasing frustration perfectly!

It's very hard to like the dwarves in The Hobbit, isn't it? We get a glimpse of Thorin's true grandeur at the end, but most of the time you just want to bash their heads together. Especially after the escape from the Goblins when they grumble at Gandalf's insistance that they have to go back into the tunnels to look for Bilbo 'drat him, I say...', when Bilbo has already made up his mind to go back in to look for them because it's his duty.

[Philipa]

Lindariel nice description of the emerging of the new Biblo. What this whole story does is create a entirely different hobbit from the one we met in the beginning.

The Bilbo at the end of The Hobbit is the one we meet again in The Fellowship of the Ring.

[Merry]

Yet Gandalf seemed to know all along that Bilbo had this potential. Part of it seemed related to his geneology, but I assume that others had similar ancestry. So how did Gandalf know?

[Lindariel]

Well . . . Gandalf was apparently an old friend of the Bullroarer and knew Belladonna Took quite well, you know. Bilbo himself describes Gandalf, among other things, as, "Not the Gandalf who was responsible for so many quiet lads and lasses going off into the Blue for mad adventures?" Our Gandalf already has quite a reputation it seems.

I just LOVE that entire opening exchange between Bilbo and Gandalf, including especially, "What a lot of things you do use Good morning for! . . . Now you mean that you want to get rid of me, and that it won't be good till I move off." Hee! Grumpy, testy Gandalf is always fun whether he's exclaiming "Fool of a Took!" in FOTR or taking Bilbo to task for trying to give him the polite bum's rush.

Tolkien had such a fabulous grasp of the folksy vernacular as well as the grand and heroic and managed to make his characters so very real through their particular speech mannerisms. This is why I felt that sometimes when PJ and Co. decided to put the words of one character into another character's mouth it didn't quite work.

[bruce rerek]

There is an endearing quality to the Hobbit that begins sweetly and ends quite soberly. In answer to lyanness question as to purchase the two volume history of the Hobbit, I would answer only if your curiosity is so piqued and it would make a good resource for other projects. I rather find secondary sources to be not as engaging as the original.
Also there is the real issue of space in one's library. Between my two loves of philosophy and Tolkien (which has taken me to Oxford on several occasions) space on the bookshelves have become quite dear. Recently I have went through the books that I have no real reason to hang onto and have donated them.
Stick with the Silmarillion, its language is dense, but once you get the cadence of how these works were crafted, my impression was that of reading Beowulf.

[Riv Res]

Not to get off track here...but am I the only one who felt that by the end of the book, Tolkien had taken a decidedly different turn in the nature of his story?

I agree and love the folksy beginning and all of the adventures, but just about at the chapter, Fire and Water, the hint of things (and tones) to come in LOTR begin to work their way into the story. Tolkien works at keeping it lighter with dreams of eggs and bacon...but the darkness is creeping in. There is war and death and loss before Bilbo returns home...themes that are expounded on greatly as the story moves on in LOTR.

It is a children's book for the most part, but certainly contains harbingers of what is to come, and it seems to me that Tolkien is always true to the myth he is creating and the myth is no fairy tale.

[Iolanthe]

I find it really two books. There is, as you say, a sort of stylistic split and I find myself wishing that it had all been one way or the other. It seems to start off aiming at very young children, then becomes something older children would relish more. As you say, his mythology just took over and steered the book away from the slight story he started off with.

Perhaps that's why it works and why it's loved by so many age groups. It could be argued that the two different styles show his inexperiece but it clearly didn't matter to generations of children who were hooked from the minute they started reading it. May be they, too, grow with the story? Perhaps if it had been all light and folksy like the beginning it would just have been a small tale read by very few, and if it had all been like the end - epic and even tragic - most children wouldn't have got past the first chapters.

Somehow it all worked out right when most critics would say the way it is written is wrong. I guess Tolkien knew exactly what he was doing after all .

[Merry]

This is interesting! Don't you think that the story grew up as Bilbo did? Every kid I know who has read the book was so thoroughly involved in the story that they (we ) were with Bilbo when Thorin died.