The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

[Lindariel]

You'll LOVE it Iolanthe -- it has a DRAGON in it!

[Iolanthe]

I shall certainly read it then! I love a good dragon : -).

[Merry]

I've been reading through LOTR AGAIN this summer and I'm making myself read the sad and scary parts carefully, which I don't often do. But there are some things to be learned there, too, of course.

One of them came from the discussion between Shagrat and Gorbag that Sam overhears after he's left Frodo behind.

'Those Nazgul give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side.'

Do you think this means that orcs believe in an afterlife?

Another line comes from Sam, who is berating himself for leaving Frodo behind, not knowing that he was still alive.

'You fool, he isn't dead, and your heart knew it. Don't trust you head, Samwise, it is not the best part of you. The trouble with you is that you never really had any hope.'

I think it's funny that Sam is calling himself 'Samwise' here. But more than that, there are a lot of messages about not giving up hope in LOTR, but I'd often overlooked this one.

[Lindariel]

Merry, I also absolutely love the continuing development of the theme of hope, who has it, who loses it, who regains it, and what happens as a result throughout LOTR.

I really wish The Professor had kept in this bit from an earlier version of Theoden King's funeral feast at Edoras in the "Many Partings" chapter in ROTK (source HOME #9 Sauron Defeated):

And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: "Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad, Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable."

How thoroughly and completely appropriate these names are, and how right that they are both grounded in the concept of Hope!

[Merry]

What a wonderful passage! You're right, Lindariel, those lines should have been left in.

[Iolanthe]

That's beautiful - it says everything we need to know about Frodo and Sam's journey.

Those Nazgul give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side.'

That passage does seem to imply that the Orcs believed in an afterlife - I can't imagine what else the fleshless 'other side' could be. The invaluable Hammond and Scull Readers Guide quote a 1954 letter from Tolkien to Peter Hastings, where he ponders the issue of Orcs having souls. He says that the Orcs are 'pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them.' In other words, they have the souls that were given them by Iluvatar when all things were given life, as, although the highest Valar could subcreate, only Iluvatar could breathe life into that creation. He says that the making of souls or spirits was not a possible 'delegation'.

So he is saying here that Orcs have the souls they originally had before corruption. Tolkien added that they were 'fundamentally a race of "rational incarnate" creatures. But later on (around 1959) he appeared to change his mind and described them as beasts perverted to human shape (with a possible Elvish or Mannish strain) and said that talking wasn't necessarily the sign of a 'rational soul'. But another piece from him in the late 50's describes them as corruptions of Elves, Men and minor spirits (which would give them a rational soul again!).

It's clearly something he wrestled with a lot.

Hammond and Scull is so useful!!!

[Merry]

It makes sense that orcs would have souls. I guess it kind of surprised me that they knew it or thought about it. I think I have been overly influenced by PJ's orcs. Tolkien's orcs are actually pretty articulate and somewhat thoughtful, at least by comparison!

[Iolanthe]

I wonder what sort of afterlife Orcs thought they would have. It sounds as though they didn't think it would be up to much!

[Merry]

Good question! It probably involves lots of meat.

[Lindariel]

I always thought the "other side" referred to the wraith-world -- the plane on which the blasted souls of the Ringwraiths exist and where Frodo is thrust whenever he put on the Ring. Perhaps that desolate place is the afterlife of orcs. How horrible!

[Merry]

Well, that could make sense, too. I think Tolkien uses 'the other side' to refer to the 'other' simultaneous existence of elves. But that's not the afterlife of either elves or Ringwraiths, is it?

[Iolanthe]

Then there would be three places, a physical life, an afterlife (which for Elves and Men really is elsewhere) and a sort of inbetween place of spirits that interacts with the physical realm. Which, as you say, Elves co-exist in, the Nazgul are stuck in and which Frodo can see with the Ring on. Interesting stuff!

[Merry]

Yes, that's never been that clear to me before, but that sums it up. Again, maybe orcs think of that as their afterlife, but it wouldn't surprise me that they weren't very good at metaphysics.

[Lindariel]

Hmmm . . . three planes of existence . . . where have we heard that before? Hmmm . . . heaven, hell, limbo sounds familiar . . .

Here are the only direct quotes I can find about the "wraith-world":

"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings . . . sooner or later the dark power will devour him." [Gandalf to Frodo in "The Shadow of the Past"]

"You were in gravest peril while you wore the Ring, for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them, and they could see you." [Gandalf to Frodo in "Many Meetings"]

"You had become visible to them, being already on the threshold of their world." [Gandalf to Frodo in "Many Meetings"]

Here is the quote about the Elven "other side":

"And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." "I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?" "Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes." [Frodo and Gandalf in "Many Meetings"]

Hence, the "other side" for Elves is Aman, the Undying Lands or "Blessed Realm," where they exist in the fullness of their power.

There is also that "dark vale" or "the shadows" ("the land of shadows" is what I called it in my Tolkien-based creative writing) where ailing spirits wander -- the place I suspect Lord Elrond went to call Frodo back after removing the sliver of Morgul blade (there is no mention of this in Tolkien's text, only that Elrond "tended" Frodo for days before finally succeeding in finding and removing the sliver from his shoulder), the place Aragorn goes into to call back the spirits of Faramir, Eowyn, and Merry, and later on, Frodo and Sam. Here is what is said about this place (the first 5 quotes are from "The Houses of Healing," and the last is from "The Field of Cormallen"):

Aragorn: "Here I must put forth all such power and skill as is given to me . . . Would that Elrond were here, for he is the eldest of all our race, and has the greater power." [This is why I suspect Elrond also called Frodo back from the "dark vale."]

For Aragorn's face grew grey with weariness; and ever and anon he called the name of Faramir, but each time more faintly to their hearing, as if Aragorn himself was removed from them, and walked afar in some dark vale, calling for one that was lost.

"Walk no more in the shadows, but awake!" [Aragorn to Faramir]

"I have, maybe, the power to heal her body, and to recall her from the dark valley . . ." [Aragorn speaking of Eowyn]

"I came in time, and I have called him back." [Aragorn speaking of Merry]

"But you went to the very brink of death ere he recalled you, putting forth all his power, and sent you into the sweet forgetfulness of sleep." [Gandalf to Frodo and Sam]

So it would seem that there are several different planes of existence within the "circles of the world" in Tolkien's sub-creation:

Aman/The Undying Lands/the Blessed Realm/the Elven "other side" -- not Heaven, but a form of earthly Paradise?
Middle-earth -- the "real" world
The "wraith-world" (possibly the "other side" for orcs?) -- Hell?
The "dark vale"/"the shadows" where ailing spirits wander -- Limbo?

There are also two other "places" to consider:
"Beyond the circles of the world" where the spirits of Men go after death -- Heaven/the realm of Eru Iluvatar where one enters into The Presence of the Creator?
The Void -- a place of nonexistence where Morgoth was banished; a place completely devoid of the presence of the "Flame Imperishable"

Certainly LOTS to consider!!!

[Merry]

This is great! Thanks, Lindariel, for the enumeration. This all sort of reminds me of the medieval circles of heaven and hell, as found in Dante and others.

I guess I always thought of the dark place that Eowyn and others went as more of a psychological state and the language more metaphorical. When we have bad dreams, we speak of it as being in a bad place, but we really don't think of it as a place, do we?