Tolkien in General

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:35 pm

I agree, Kirill.

lyanness · Post by **lyanness** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:04 pm

Beren wrote: If you then see in the movies that quotes can be switched of persons, that complete Hobbit texts are spoken by humans and the other way around, if a Dunedain can speak with the words of Gandalf,... you can't say any longer that this is in the spirit of Tolkien; it hurts my ears, it is incorrect and a big mistake.
It is the power of the books, the weakness of the movies.

I have read (and heard) the answers of the script writers why they enlarged the Shelob scene, why Sam had to be sent back, why it was Arwen and not Glorfindel who had to put a spell on the river,... all the answers are plain stupid and make no sense. I'm sorry but the movies where cinematicly very outstanding, but it was not a good translation of the book. I remain with the idea that even if it is technically possible to make an adaption of the Lord of the Rings, it is not needed to do so... for me it would have been better that no such movie was made. They make me sad and angry.

The point of creating the Lord of the Rings in the cinematic version by PJ and Co, was to bring the books to ones who had never read it, as well as enhance his own imagination about the book. The cinematic version never meant to insult, anger, sadden or disgust anyone. Ive said it before and I'll say it again - it was PJs interpretation of the books. I just wish that you could open your mind to all possibilities, instead of insisting in wrong and right. Remember that Tolkien's work is fiction. There are no wrongs or rights to fiction, just interpretations.
There are countless books on the interpretations of Tolkien's work. Why dont you criticise that too? Why only do the movies anger and sadden you? The movies are just another interpretation, Beren. The only person, I feel, that has the right to say "wrong" and "right" regarding the work is Professor Tolkien himself as the story origionated with him. Everyone else is bound to interpretation, not creation. PJ knows this, hence has created his interpretation of the Professor's work.

Gees, Beren, l suggest you lighten up, hey?

Riv Res · Post by **Riv Res** » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:33 pm

I am going to step in here and just give us all a gentle reminder that we are all rightfully entitled to our own opinions on Tolkien's works and the interpretation of those works by people like PJ. In some cases we will have to agree to disagree.

But in all cases we do require that we treat author, interpreter, and each other with respect. Whether we be Tolkien purist or avid promoter of a wide interpretation, let's agree to discuss all things Tolkien with an open mind and acceptance of opinions that vary from our own...please. As Tolkien has shown us so well...words are powerful.

Carry on my friends. $\:D/$

lyanness · Post by **lyanness** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:49 am

Sorry if I overstepped the border.

That's all that I wanted: everyone to enjoy Tolkien's work with an open mind. I'm not a Tolkien purist (yet) so I cant understand what Beren is feeling, but at least one would take into consideration all aspects of Tolkiens works? Including the interpretations? As protective as some are of Tolkiens origional writings, I am of PJs work as - as though it is not the cup of tea of Tolkien purists - it brought me to Tolkien's work. For that I am truely grateful, hence I will defend PJs works: a bit less violently next time.

I raise the white flag up high and humbly apologise.

lyanness · Post by **lyanness** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:57 am

Riv Res wrote:Bruse and all, I am going to invite all of you to a small intimate affair where I dwell in Rivendell. We will dine in the Hall of Fire...after dinner tales and lore supplied by master Bilbo Baggins. Autumn has come to the Valley of the Bruinen and we will celebrate its bounty.
Bring your appetite and imagination.

I wish that we could have such gatherings in South Africa!!! $\:D/$

$\:D/$ It would be bliss!!!

Calling all Tolkienites from South Africa

We should make contact with each other.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 2:50 pm

Nicely done, lyanness. I'm not sure that Beren visits here very often any more, but I'm sure he would say that there were some parts of the movies he enjoyed very much.

Also, the feast at Rivendell was a virtual affair, not a real-life meeting, so feel free to join in! It was a lovely exercise in menu-making. So if you were the chef at Rivendell, what would you make for us for supper?

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:42 pm

Thanks for your kind words above lyanness. Personally, I am one of those who falls somewhere in the middle when it comes to the book/movie discussion. On the whole, I do have tremendous appreciation for PJ & Co's work; clearly, they love The Professor's great work, and they did strive to preserve as much as possible the atmosphere and spirit of Tolkien's magnificent tale. Their attention to detail was extraordinary; the film was quite simply GORGEOUS and so splendidly and perfectly cast.

Plus, they gave us Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn.

And Howard Shore's stunning scores.

For that, they have my everlasting gratitude.

However, they didn't just tweak the story here and there in order to make it cinematically viable. They took many, many, MANY liberties with plot and characterization.

Some liberties I found completely acceptable and understandable. For instance, eliminating the hobbits' sojourn into the Old Forest, meeting Tom Bombadil and Goldberry, and the encounter with the barrow wights. While I particularly regretted the loss of Tom and Goldberry, I could accept this edit in the name of tightening up the tale dramatically. One simply cannot take a complex book of over 1,000 pages and turn it into roughly 10 hours of film without making some compromises. I have no problem with that.

Some liberties I found a bit questionable, but after hearing their explanations I could accept them because they didn't pull the story too terribly out of shape. Having the Elves arrive at Helm's Deep, for instance. Didn't happen in the book, but I accepted it as a nod to the fact that the Elves did indeed fight battles during the War of the Ring in Lorien and Mirkwood against Dol Guldur and in Rivendell against the forces of Gundabad. We learn this in the Appendices, and having the Elves join with the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep acknowledges the Elven contribution to the War without drastically lengthening the plot. Again, questionable, but acceptable.

Some liberties I found a bit stupid and trying or simply amusing because they were clearly done solely to appeal to the all-important teenage boy movie-going demographic. The more amusing interludes included all of the "Errol Flynn" moments for Legolas -- "skateboarding" down the steps at Helm's Deep and taking down the mumakil single-handedly on the Pelennor Fields. OK, fine, throw the teenage boys a bone; I did get a kick out of those bits. The longer Paths of the Dead scene in the extended version of TTT was just plain STUPID (the mounds and mounds of falling skulls), and it belittled Aragorn's majesty and command of the forces of the Dead. The Stone of Erech scene in the book would have been far MORE cinematically appealing. Then there were all of the endless battle scenes on the Pelennor Field that could have been shortened in favor of giving us the beautiful scene in the Houses of Healing (the tiny scrap in the EV of ROTK was just completely unsatisfying to Tolkien lovers). But no, we must please the 13-18 year-old boys.

Finally, some liberties I found to be absolutely abhorrent and indefensible because they completely changed the nature of the characters the Professor created and were absolutely unnecessary. Aragorn lopping off the head of the Mouth of Sauron in the EV of ROTK (the King of Gondor would not lower himself to attack and kill an unarmed emissary; just UGH! that was AWFUL!); Gandalf striking Denethor (again, Gandalf would never physically strike the Steward of Gondor, and if he did, the guards should have immediately taken him into custody, if they didn't kill him on the spot for attacking their sovereign lord); Faramir initially choosing to take the Ring to Minas Tirith (no, no, no, just NO!); Frodo turning against Sam and sending him away (complete folly and absolutely unnecessary). Perhaps the worst is the complete bastardization of the character of Denethor. Just to name the few that pop immediately to mind.

Despite all this, I am still extremely grateful to PJ & Co. for these beautiful movies. I NEVER thought I would see LOTR on the big screen in my lifetime, and I was horribly afraid PJ (who I'd NEVER heard of before) would make a complete flop of it and set back any further efforts to bring the book to the screen for at least another decade if not longer. Instead, he made cinematic history, achieved some extraordinary technical advances, and gave us, if not exactly The Professor's story, nonetheless a spell-binding 10 hours of Middle-earth adventure that seemed to have walked off the pages and out of my own imagination.

Moreover, the films encouraged many, many people -- a whole new generation -- to discover Tolkien's books, and THAT is probably the most important gift PJ could possibly have given us.

lyanness · Post by **lyanness** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:25 pm

Lindariel wrote: Plus, they gave us Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn. And Howard Shore's stunning scores. For that, they have my everlasting gratitude.

I don't know if you know this, but Stuart Townsend was actually first cast in that role (I read this somewhere, but for the life of me cant remember where), but he acted like a total diva, arguing on end with the writers, director, costume maker, etc. PJ said in FoTR extended edition cd 1 that the most important thing to him during casting was that everyone got along, hence they had to let the first person cast in the role of Aragorn go, and Viggo literally had a few hours to decide whether he would take the role or not. He had many doubts as he would be away from his home in a country that he'd never been to for about 18 mnths, and had never met PJ nor seen his works. We actually have to thank Viggo's son Henry - who read the LoTR at the age of 12, puts me to shame

- who made Viggo take the part as he was beside himself to think that his dad could be playing Aragorn. Henry, all the females of the world owe you one

As for Howard Shore, I have somewhat of a music background - completed grade 8 at school - and have seldom come across such passion and the most wonderful orchestration as I have encountered with the music. I actually have the soundtracks and listen to them often, and can definately associate certain elements of the music with the characters that the music represents. It's brilliant!!!! There's rumour (from PJs mouth) that Howard Shore will also score the Hobbit, so theres plenty of exited anticipation from my part.

lyanness · Post by **lyanness** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:53 pm

Its true what you said about the battle scenes being endless, Lindariel. I definately felt the battle fatigue. Its much much worse if you've seen the extended edition. Certain elements needed to be added to the battle, like Grond breaking down the door, the Witchking of angmar speaking to Gandalf, the arrival of the riders of Rohan, (I feel that Pippin getting his first kill is also important

), the arrival of the oliphante (afrikaans version, the Tolkien spelling is lacking at the moment), death of King Theodin, fight between Eowyn and the Witchking and Gandalf speaking to Pippin giving him a glimmer of hope (sorry if I left any out), but the rest? I can understand it from a stuntman's perspective as they love the fighting scenes. I suppose PJ just wanted to give something special to everyone. I also would have loved to see more than a snippet of the Houses of Healing.

I thought that the chopping off of the Mouth of Sauron was in the book!

Sheesh, you're right, it shouldn't have been added, I totally agree with you. (In my defence of my ignorance, it is totally impossible for me to read the LoTR at the moment and do it any justice. I've been slaving away at work like the orcs in Isengard. I'm waiting for a possible holiday, maybe, possibly, if the hospital can spare me. Then I'll lock myself in my room and read it from cover to cover.)

I was wondering to myself, albeit quietly, why Gandalf was allowed to exert so much authority when in Minas Tirith, as in beating up Denethor. Glad you voiced it, Lindariel

I always thought that everyone just assumed that he had more authority as he is a different being, a Mitherandian.

I also thought that Denethor was just a grumpy old man. Sheesh, I need to read that book!!!!

I'm missing out!!!

lyanness · Post by **lyanness** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:16 pm

I'm a terrible eater (poor quality taste buds due to chronic sinusitis), so menu's are not really my forte, Merry.

What I would do is have a three course meal - we usually dont do much more than that down here, usually its 2 courses, food and desert, so it's wierd for me to even think of more than three. Anyway, here goes:

Starter: Pea soup with croutons, mint mineral water.

Main course: Roast lamb with roast potatoes, and loads of roasted vegetables, drizzled with gravy, accompanied with Italian salad with loads of dark leaves and cherry tomatoes, full bodied red wine in accompaniment, or in the case of people like me who cant/dont drink alcohol, red berry ice tea

Desert: warm Malva pudding and custard, green tea or coffee

I dont really do the restaurant scene, so this is what I'd cook up if I were to have the kitchen for a while at Rivendell.

Bon appetite

Philipa · Post by **Philipa** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 12:57 am

Check this site out. It's called aptly enough The Tolkien Guide. It is a site for collectors and fun to crawl around inside.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:38 am

Interesting site, Philipa. I think I'm serious about Tolkien, but I'd bet some of those collectors would put me to shame!

Iolanthe · Post by **Iolanthe** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:57 pm

Interesting site, I see Beren's there

....

...and there's a Pauline Baynes tea towel!

I see the 2009 Heren Istarion calendar is also featured there

.

Philipa · Post by **Philipa** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:26 pm

Iolanthe wrote:
...and there's a Pauline Baynes tea towel!

A tea towel, giggles.

Philipa · Post by **Philipa** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:15 pm

Merry I thought of you when reading the March 24s entry of Prof. Drout's blog Wormtalk and Slugspeak. Perhaps you should post your class information.