The Lord of the Rings - A General Discussion Thread

[Lindariel]

I think it is interesting to note that not all elves have access to the "other side," but only those elves in Middle-earth who at some point lived in Aman. Thinking about this very carefully, the only conclusion is that the elves who "live in both realms" are the Noldor in exile. They are the only elves who went to Aman, or were born in Aman, and then LEFT to return to Middle-earth. Who else could it be? Since this is the case, we're talking about a very small, select group of elves -- Glorfindel, Galadriel, Gildor Inglorion (who names himself an exile of the House of Finrod), possibly Erestor (as Elrond's chief counselor, he very likely is a Noldo of noble birth). The vast majority of the Noldor leadership were wiped out in their wars with Morgoth.

Another very interesting point is that Elrond would NOT be one of these powerful elf-lords who exist on both planes. He was born in Middle-earth and has never been to Aman. Thranduil (and by extension Legolas) likewise has never been to Aman. Celeborn also could fall into this category, depending upon which incarnation of Celeborn one takes to be the "true" story.

Fascinating, yes?

[Iolanthe]

This is very interesting, thanks for the summation of it all, Lindariel. I hadn't noticed the qualification that only Elves who had lived in Aman walked simultaneously in both worlds. I assumed that Legolas did. I might need to do some more digging here.

When it comes to the healing Aragorn did, I've always interpreted the dark valley and the shadows as a real place where the soul has almost left the body but not quite severed all connection. Like a hinterland where the other side is glimpsed ahead, but not crossed. The dark tunnel that people describe who have had near death experiences.

All this complexity (and add to that the fact that elves reincarnate) goes to show that Tolkien's spiritual musings were far from straightforward. I haven't used the word 'beliefs' as these are far more like explorations.

[Merry]

There are some references in LOTR to Legolas sort of existing on another level, too, aren't there? Dang: more research!

[Lindariel]

Not that I can recall, Merry. Much is made of his uncanny eyesight and hearing, typical of all elves, as well as his extraordinary skill with the bow -- the preferred weapon of the silvan elves -- but I do not recall any mention of him "existing on another level." Perhaps you are thinking of his elven ability to go for long periods without sleep by "resting" in his memories, but that also is an ability shared by all elves.

I'm doing a quick scan to see if I can find anything else that might point to Legolas having some connection to the "other side," but I do not believe such a reference exists.

Iolanthe, your thoughts about the "dark vale" being an actual metaphysical place are about the same as mine.

[Iolanthe]

I thought (like Merry) that I remembered something about Legolas and that it was something said to Gimli on the road to Isengard, but there's nothing. I've also looked in Lothlorien and drawn a blank. But something is picking away at the back of my brain...

[Lindariel]

I did a quick scan through the entire book -- well all the parts with Legolas in them -- and found nothing about Legolas having any kind of heightened existence. Just the usual elven traits -- exceptionally keen eyesight and hearing, his silvan skill with the bow, the ability to "commune" with trees and animals (particularly his skill with Arod), and the ability to rest in reverie rather than sleep. Merry and Iolanthe, is there a chance you are remembering something you read about Legolas in HOME or elsewhere? I just do not see anything of this sort in LOTR.

It is also possible a little bit of PJ may be creeping in here. The movies made Legolas a good bit more preternatural than Tolkien did in the book -- constantly "sensing" danger, "feeling" that the Eye of Sauron was upon them when Pippin looked into the palantir, etc., not to mention all the flashy Errol Flynn moves designed to entertain the skateboarding crowd. Also, if you've done any fan fiction reading, there are many folks that have assigned Legolas a whole array of abilities he really doesn't have. It all becomes a bit of a mangled mess after a while!

[Iolanthe]

No - definitely not PJ or HoM (I haven't read the LotR part yet). There is nothing in Unfinished Tales so it must be related to something I read elsewhere, maybe somebody's speculation . I've read so much it could be anything!

Looking through Unfinished Tales, though, I found something unrelated but interesting! Tolkien makes the observation in The Istari that elves were not - in Sauron's final overthrow - 'effectively concerned at the point of action', being more directors and counsellors. More resisiting Sauron than acting. He then says that Legolas 'probably achieved the least of the Nine Walkers'.

Interesting observation about Legolas, who was in the heart of the action but wasn't a pivot like some of the others. Seems like a good subject for a discussion. What did Legolas achieve? And was it really the least - less than, say, Gimli?

[Merry]

Sorry to have dropped the ball on the Legolas discussion--I'm buying a new house and packing to move, etc., so not much time to peruse texts these days! (And when one has to put one's books into boxes and have someone carry them, yet again, that is when one might realize that one has too many books. And shoes. And margarita glasses--really, does one need to have glasses that only one beverage can be served in? Sigh. )

I think Legolas' contributions to the collective effort is fairly similar to Gimli's, maybe a little more if we make lists of achievements, but it seems like it might be less compared to what we think it should be. I always got the feeling that elves can take care of business: when elves show up in FOTR, you know the hobbits are safe. But in the end, Legolas does a lot of sighing about ents and the sea, the sea, and plays no leadership role in the events of the War of the Ring.

But this is purposeful for Tolkien, right? The age of the elves is over and the age of men has begun.

[Iolanthe]

True! And he had so many heroes together as the Nine Walkers that some of them just had to 'walk' less than others or there would have been even more stories to follow. Of course, Legolas and Gimli are Aragorn's companions and are a bit overshadowed as it's his story they are supporting. It's a bit hard to compete with the King of Gondor, even when you are an elf, I guess. Plus all the other elves that turn up are just a bit above the poor guy.

...does one need to have glasses that only one beverage can be served in?

Absolutely! You'll need them all when you have your house warming party .

[Lindariel]

Oh, I simply MUST weigh in in favor of that most wonderful of beverages, the margarita! Merry, how lovely that you have special glasses just for this most congenial of cocktails, especially since it is so cooperative and perfectly happy to be served in almost any sort of glass. As far as I'm concerned, keep the wine glasses, the champagne flutes, and the margarita glasses, and ditch everything else! Well . . . keep the water tumblers; they're handy, too.

And for heaven's sake, there's simply no such thing as too many books . . . or shoes . . . .

Now, as far as the topic is concerned, Legolas, Gimli, and Boromir all appear to be the "also ran" characters of this piece. For plot purposes, Boromir's specific role is to provide the impetus that breaks up the Fellowship. As far as his "accomplishments," he and Aragorn provided the manly "brawn" to clear the path down from Caradhras and the swordsmanship for the orc skirmishing in Moria. Later, Boromir defends Merry and Pippin, ultimately unsuccessfully on Parth Galen and dies a heroic death.

Legolas and Gimli help the Fellowship out with their specific skill sets:

Legolas -- the party's principal scout, given his preternaturally keen eyesight and hearing, and their most gifted archer. I suspect he also provided quite a bit of meat for the camp stewpot along the way. He was also their ambassador, along with Aragorn, with the elves of Lothlorien.

Gimli -- the party's chief (only) axeman and a key guide to Gandalf in Moria. Gimli would have been their primary firestarter (so Gandalf could keep his power with fire veiled), woodcutter, and water finder ("dousing" is a geological skill, hence a particular skill of the dwarves).

Having an elf and a dwarf in the Fellowship came in handy at various points during the journey, and as Aragorn's SOLE companions for a part of the Quest, they were invaluable.

[Iolanthe]

They were both certainly invaluable, which I guess isn't quite the same thing as 'achieving' in the way Tolkien was thinking of when he wrote that comment. But others have to support and serve for others to achieve the necessary goals!

Sam, of course, was both a supporter and an achiever!

[Merry]

Hey, we almost missed it: today is when a green fire shone from King Elessar's hand!

[Lindariel]

On Saturday evening Sept. 11, I attended the U.S. premiere of the live performance of ROTK at Wolf Trap along with my husband Mr. L, our two daughters Miss L the Elder (AKA our youngest MeJ member Meliel) and Miss L the Younger, and our newly "adopted" son Master N (he is an absolutely delightful young man, one of Meliel's school chums, his family kindly allows us to "borrow" him on a regular basis for our family outings, and we thoroughly enjoy his company).

We were thrilled to meet up with fellow V-W friends Mallorn, PA Lady, Starfolk, and Topaz, as well as Topaz's charming husband Mr. T, for a picnic dinner on the grounds, and then we were off to enjoy the pre-performance lecture by Deb Lamberton, Senior Producer at Classical WETA 90.9 FM. She provided a brief introduction to the major musical themes Howard Shore incorporated into the ROTK score. I did not realize that, over the entirety of the 3 film scores, he had created over 80 themes! WOW! It was a very enjoyable lecture, and my children in particular commented that they were able to pick out the themes as they occurred during the performance, which helped them appreciate the music even more.

Conductor Ludwig Wicki led the wonderful Filene Center orchestra, the combined forces of The City Choir of Washington and the Fairfax Choral Society, and soloists Kaitlyn Lusk and boy soprano Nolan Peters of the Boys' Choir of St. Paul's, Washington, DC, through an incredible performance of the film score, while we enjoyed ROTK in HD on the big screen. I had the pleasure of seeing both FOTR and TTT in previous years at Wolf Trap in this format, and I cannot emphasize strongly enough what an extraordinary experience it is to hear this incredible score performed live. Hearing it in surround-sound in the theatre is just a pale facsimile -- a flat, homogeneous representation. The live performance is a multi-layered, physical, visceral experience unlike any other, and the opportunity to watch these talented musicians perform the score is also a great pleasure. It really is like getting two shows in one -- the movie on the screen, and the concert on the stage. Just watching the percussion section is like witnessing an odd form of dance!

If you have an opportunity to see one of these performances, you simply MUST go! You will not be sorry!

I have scanned a copy of the Program Notes from the Wolf Trap program guide and e-mailed them to Riv to be posted here so we can all enjoy them.

[Iolanthe]

It sounds so fantastic, Lindrial. I really must try and go to this if they bring it to London. I can imagine the sheer gut force of a real orchestra while the Beacons are being lit or the Rohirrim ride into battle!

I didn't realise there were 80 themes either. That's simply incredible.

[hope]

Oh you are so lucky....it sounds like such an uplifting experience! Oh I wish that that these performances could be in the UK