Tolkien Trivia

Riv Res · Post by **Riv Res** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:39 pm

Varda wrote:Thangorodrim , or the Mountains of Tyranny were raised by Morgoth above thet gates of Angband.

Very good Varda!

Tag...you're it!

Varda · Post by **Varda** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:55 am

Give me another day to come up with a question...!

Varda · Post by **Varda** » Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:59 pm

I must apologize for not having a question to go before now...it's a lot easier to answer them then come up with a new one!

What befell the Men of Westernesse during the reign of the twenty second king?

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:31 am

If I'm guessing rightly, most of them died.

Wasn't the 22nd king the last one, who attempted to sail to the Undying Lands, thereby incurring the wrath of the Valar and the drowning of Numenor?

Varda · Post by **Varda** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:26 pm

Perhaps I should clarify what I am looking for...

what events/actions took place during the reign of Ar-Gimilzôr?

PS~ when this question is answered, I have a question for everyone else concerning the correct lineage of this king...

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 3:15 am

Ha! I was confused about that, Varda. I think there were 22 kings and 3 queens.

Marilyn · Post by **Marilyn** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:07 am

Varda wrote:Perhaps I should clarify what I am looking for...

what events/actions took place during the reign of Ar-Gimilzôr?

During the reign of the previous two kings they did not use the elven language, however the Faithful were permitted to use it, but under Ar-Gimilzor it was banned altogether and he became the enemy of the Faithful and punished them for using it. The king also would not allow the Eldar to visit Numenor any more.

Is this what you are looking for?

Marilyn

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:17 pm

According to the Encyclopedia of Arda, the 22nd ruler of Numenor was Ar-Sakalthor:

Ar-Sakalthôr, The twenty-second ruler of Númenor -- The son and heir of Ar-Zimrathôn of Númenor. He followed the tradition of his grandfather Ar-Adûnakhôr, and took his King-name in the Adûnaic tongue (the Elvish equivalent is recorded as Tar-Falassion). Ar-Sakalthôr ruled Númenor for sixty-nine years. He was succeeded by his son, who took the Sceptre as King Ar-Gimilzôr.

Varda, are you asking about the 22nd ruler, or the 22nd MAN to hold the throne? As was mentioned earlier, there were three ruling queens of Numenor; there would have been a fourth ruling queen -- Miriel, daughter of Tar-Palantir -- but she was usurped by Ar-Pharazon (the "Golden"), who got so big-headed that he captured Sauron, fell under the sway of the Dark Lord, and was eventually duped into raising an armada for the purpose of wresting immortality from the Valar, resulting in the drowning of Numenor. Ar-Pharazon was the 25th RULER of Numenor, making him 22nd KING of Numenor once you subtract out the 3 queens.

Here's what the Encyclopedia of Arda has to say about Ar-Gimilzor:

Ar-Gimilzor: The twenty-third King of Númenor, the father of Tar-Palantir and grandfather of Ar-Pharazôn, the last King. He was an enemy of the Faithful and the Elf-friends, and persecuted them during his reign.

Varda · Post by **Varda** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:19 am

marilyn~ 99% right..only thing missing is the White Tree was left untended and began to decline during this time.

as for the question on the 22nd king...my copy of The Silmarillion states that ..." For Ar-Gimilzor the twenty-second king was the greatest enemy of the Faithful." Ar-Sakalthor is listed as the father of Ar-Gimilzor...

the Kings as listed are~
Ar-Gimilzôr~ 22nd King
Tar-Palantir~23rd King
Ar-Pharazôn~24th King

So who do you think has it right??

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:10 pm

Hah! We've found another instance in which the Professor disagrees with himself.

In Appendix A of LotR he states:

At last the twentieth King took his royal name, in Numenorean form, calling himself Ar-Adunakhor, "Lord of the West."

Reckoning by this statement, Ar-Gimilzor would be the 23rd King, hence the entry in the Encyclopedia of Arda.

However, in The Silmarillion, the Professor states:

And the nineteenth king took the sceptre of his fathers, and he ascended the throne in the name of Adunakhor, Lord of the West, forsaking the Elven-tongues and forbidding their use in his hearing.

By this reckoning, Ar-Gimilzor would be the 22nd King.

Finally, by checking the list of the names of the King and Queens of Numenor in Appendix A of LotR, I think we can determine that the Professor counted correctly in The Silmarillion (probably would have helped if he had numbered them, as I have below):

1. Elros Tar-Minyatur
2. Vardamir
3. Tar-Amandil
4. Tar-Elendil
5. Tar-Meneldur
6. Tar-Aldarion
7. Tar-Ancalime (1st ruling queen)
8. Tar-Anarion
9. Tar-Surion
10. Tar-Telperien (2nd ruling queen)
11. Tar-Minastir
12. Tar-Ciryatan
13. Tar-Atanamir the Great
14. Tar-Ancalimon
15. Tar-Telemmaite
16. Tar-Vanimelde (3rd ruling queen)
17. Tar-Alcarin
18. Tar-Calmacil
19. Ar-Adunakhor
20. Ar-Zimrathon
21. Ar-Sakalthor
22. Ar-Gimilzor
23. Ar-Inziladun, who repented and changed his name to Tar-Palantir the Farsighted
24. Tar-Miriel, who would have been the 4th ruling queen, but was usurped by Ar-Pharazon the Golden

Whew! I guess it's a good thing the Professor wasn't an accountant . . .

And I believe Marilyn asks the next question!

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:49 pm

Is it also possible that Tolkien wasn't as careful about gender-neutral language as we are today?

Marilyn · Post by **Marilyn** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:20 pm

Interesting discussion on the rulers of Numenor. Tolkien sure knows how to get a debate going!

This shouldn't be very difficult:

What was "thudder sharp" and what was believed to be it's final resting place?

Level 2 - 2.5

Marilyn

Riv Res · Post by **Riv Res** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:13 am

Thudder-sharp is Dramborleg, Tuor`s axe and is thought to have perished with the drowning of Númenor...so it final resting was the bottom of the Sea.

Marilyn · Post by **Marilyn** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:07 am

Correct, Riv. You're up next.

There was only a small reference in Unfinished Tales of Tuor's axe and it mentioned "The Fall of Gondolin" is this book still in print?

Marilyn

Riv Res · Post by **Riv Res** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:08 pm

Marilyn wrote: Correct, Riv. You're up next.

There was only a small reference in Unfinished Tales of Tuor's axe and it mentioned "The Fall of Gondolin" is this book still in print?

Marilyn

Marilyn, "The Fall of Gondolin" is actuially Chapter III in The Book of Lost Tales: Part Two.