Middle-earth Journeys

Not that I disagree, V and P, because he does seem that way from the start, but why would Eru create a demigod so powerful and so flawed?

That's something I don't understand...but then perhaps Eru had no idea what Melkor would be until after he was created. The bigger question is why didn't Eru destroy Melkor somewhere along the way...you could give him the benefit of the doubt that he would change his ways at first, but after the repeated attempts to covet, corrupt and destroy !

I think even Eru knew there had to be a counter balance in his world. Besides Melkor was his "child" so to speak and one can not always just do away with a child. That is why Melkor ended up in a "time out" cave inside Arda.

The Ainulindale is by far my favorite part of The Silmarillion!

I think we have to look very carefully at the way Tolkien illuminates Melkor's discontent:

But now Iluvatar sat and hearkened [to the music of the Ainur], and for a great while it seemed good to him, for in the music there were no flaws. But as the theme progressed, it came into the heart of Melkor to interweave matters of his own imagining that were not in accord with the theme of Iluvatar; for he sought therein to increase the power and glory of the part assigned to himself. To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren . . . .

And when the Ainur had gazed for a while [at the vision of Arda] and were silent, Iluvatar said again: "Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory."

According to Tolkien's own words, Melkor's discontent and discord arise not from evil, but from the desire to create, and they are part and parcel of Iluvatar's design and intentions for Arda from the beginning. What happens next in Melkor's evolution? According to Tolkien:

But when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Iluvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty among them bent all their thought and their desire towards that place. And of these Melkor was chief, even as he was in the beginning the greatest of the Ainur who took part in the Music. And he feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Iluvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass through him. But he desired rather to subdue to his will both Elves and Men, envying the gifts with which Iluvatar promised to endow them; and he wished himself to have subjects and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills.

The desire to create, which is a powerful force fraught with danger if not carefully wielded, is followed by the desire to control. It is this desire that leads to the fall of Melkor into genuine evil. It could be argued that the desire for control is behind the "fall from grace" for many leading characters in Tolkien's canon. Feanor desired control over his own creations and swore his sons to that purpose; Galadriel wished to rule a dominion of her own; Thingol wanted to control his daughter Luthien's destiny; Saruman and Denethor both fall to their desire for power that has not be granted to them, etc.

I am particularly grateful for this discussion, because in re-reading The Ainulindale, I discovered an intriguing passage I had forgotten:

Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Iluvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days.

Since the phrase "the Children of Iluvatar," refers to both Elves and Men, this gives further validation to my belief that Elves and Men will not be forever sundered in the afterlife, but will be reunited when Arda ceases to exist.

Thanks for showing us the relevant passages, Lindariel.

I share your speculation that a uniting of all kinds is what JRRT had in mind for the end of all things. Although the mythology was not meant to be an allegory of the tradition Judeo-Christian creation story, I can't imagine that Tolkien would differ from it in anything truly important. It would not be a eucatastrophe unless all was made well, unless every hope was fulfilled at the end. One has to imagine him looking forward to being reunited with his Elven princess, Edith.

It is quite appropriate, though, that this is left a matter of speculation and hope.

On the matter of Melkor, I think Bruce had the right idea at the beginning of this: if one is going to create beings who are free, one ought not be surprised if one of them uses his freedom.

One more concept to think about the nature of evil. Its not something that is created, Melkor's will was of his ruin. I think that it is important to remember that the notion of duality often makes us lose sight that what is created is of beauty and truth. How it is handled and what choices one makes to use of the creation is where all the tribulations come from. What strikes me about Tolkien is how he so elegantly illustrates and understands the difference between mastering and stewardship; of will as opposed to reason. Somewhere between all of that comes wisdom, and as the Bard of Avon once wrote, knowlege doth makes a bloody enterence.

That's a very good point about mastering and stewardship, Bruce. Iluvatar creates, and holds stewardship over his creation through the Valar. His creation is allowed to make it's mistakes and even to mar things, but also to rise above those mistakes with careful guidence and even more careful help. But Melkor wants his creation to stay within strict bounds, always his and never taking on an existence, a freedom of it's own. To always be exactly as he concieved it. As it's the nature of everything in creation to change it's a hopless task and his methods become increasingly vile as he struggles to maintain control of what cannot be controlled. The only servants who truly serve him without their own agenda are base and marred beyond any worth. Apart from their unthinking obedience, if he conquered the whole world he would find himself alone in it.

That is the true nature of radical evil. It cannot trust, nor can it totally be sure that he has the ultimate power to rule. It doubts and that undermines reslove. Melkor covered himself with vaingolorosity and had Luthien dance before him, only to his loss and to great anger.
Tolkien's dragons are very much emblamatic of these vices. They hoard and are unware of the value of what they possess, for they only know that their desire informs them of its worth. Full of deciet and wrath, a dragon's undoing is not necessarily the skill of the champion, but the flawed nature of radical evil.

Although this is from the Narn I Hîn Húrin, published in Unfinished Tales, not The Silmarillion, I think this confrontation between Húrin and Morgoth tells us volumes about the weakness inherent in Tolkien's most evil protagonists:

But Húrin the Steadfast mocked him, saying: 'Blind you are Morgoth Bauglir, and blind shall ever be, seeing only the dark. You know not what rules the hearts of Men, and if you knew you could not give it. But a fool he is who accepts what Morgoth offers.'

This is where Morgoth and Sauron are bound to fail - 'You know not what rules the hearts of Men, and if you knew you could not give it.' This is something they can never totally control because they cannot understand it. The nearest either comes to success is Sauron's control over the 9 Rings of Men and the Nazgul, but this is a pretty poor show when there is a whole world of men to conquer.

Great quote! This is the blindness that is also Sauron's downfall in LOTR.

Shall we discuss the historical points of how key Gondolin was to the road to Minas Tirith? Plenty of names as well as parallels to the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit to be cited. I posted one about Thorondor, who kept the secret of Gonodolin and bore Fingolfin's body away was Gwaihir's father.

bruce rerek wrote:Shall we discuss the historical points of how key Gondolin was to the road to Minas Tirith? Plenty of names as well as parallels to the Lord of the Rings and the Hobbit to be cited. I posted one about Thorondor, who kept the secret of Gonodolin and bore Fingolfin's body away was Gwaihir's father.

Bruce (sorry it took me so long to respond), can we start with the physical layout of the two cities being so similar, and then also their individual histories and symbolic events? Each city was built in layers, and it appears that Tolkien liked what he did with Gondolin so much that he transferred the concept to Minas Tirith. The is an nice summary of The Seven Gates of Gondolin by James O'connell that cements the similarities between the two cities, although he does not speak of MT.

Built in levels...each level had a renowned gate...each city ultimately beseiged by the greatest of evil forces...one perishes and one survives. Would Tokien's unfinished sequel to LOTR have led to the demise of MT?

Visually, Ted Nasmith gives us a clear reference for the duality...

Gondolin



Minas Tirith

Wow! Great pictures.

Riv Res has given us a visual comparison, and I'll add on to it with a little verbal comparison: Gondolin and Gondor, both from the root meaning 'stone'.

I have been re-reading Turin's tale. Would anyone care to discuss this sad epic and if so shall we begin with the question of was he doomed by Morgoth or by his own character?

bruce rerek wrote:I have been re-reading Turin's tale. Would anyone care to discuss this sad epic and if so shall we begin with the question of was he doomed by Morgoth or by his own character?

Bruce, I would love to but definitely need to refresh my memory by re-reading a few bits. Hope to catch up soon.

I'll be back.