Tolkien Trivia

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:12 pm

Ah yes, a little man both in spirit and stature, who came to a very sticky end. Frodo would have had it otherwise, but if one plays with "sharks" one should not be surprised if they turn on you.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:25 pm

Ah, yes, poor old Lotho. Do you think Saruman was just being cruel to Grima, or was his suggestion that Lotho met a particularly gruesome fate at Grima's hands true?

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:51 pm

That is hard to say. I rather think that Lotho envied this title and would not have had it under ordinary circumstances. So he was an agent in destroying a realm that he wanted to rule, thus forefiting his life. Grima was doing what he did best; a souless vessel to do Saruman's bidding.
What I find most people lose sight of the Scouring of the Shire is that the now mature Hobbits were able to tend to matters without aid of men or wizards. Although the Elves rings of power were now void, Galadriel's gift to Sam was a living legacy to a realm that once existed and retained the beauty she had lived so long to maintain. In the restoration of the trees of the Shire is the true lasting homage to a race that for all its power and wisdom could not understand that we are only stewards of nature not its master.

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:55 pm

Bruce, those are wonderful insights. I also agree that the Scouring of the Shire is an extremely important part of the story, and I was so very sorry that PJ felt it necessary to remove it from the film (although he did "pay homage" to it in the vision Frodo sees in Galadriel's mirror of the Shire being attacked and destroyed and the hobbits forced into slavery). It is truly a testament to how much the hobbits have grown, and it is a shame we didn't get to see them take charge of their homeland and become heroes in the eyes of their own people.

For me, the importance of the Scouring of the Shire is the effect it has on Frodo. He is already "haunted" in his mind and body by the wound he suffered on Weathertop, the poisoned sting of Shelob, the loss of his finger, and most importantly the loss of the Ring. Had he come home to an untouched Shire, perhaps he might have been drawn to stay there and "forget." But instead, he came home to experience the last stroke of the War of the Ring on the very doorstep of Bag End. Now, his home is also haunted by the murder of Saruman, the execution of Grima, and the knowledge that somewhere in the back corridors of his home, his (admittedly disliked) kinsman Lotho was murdered and probably cannibalized.

Poor Frodo! Tormented in mind and body, and now even his own home is no longer a refuge from terrible memories. Is it any wonder he eventually chose to accept Arwen's place on the White Ship?

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:42 pm

One often wonders if the Professor's experience of pre and post world war one England was illustrated in the creation of the Shire. The flower of Europe, Russia, England, and America perished on the Western and Eastern fronts as did the bucolic landscapes to industrialization. How alien the world must have been to JRR by the time the LOTR was published.
I agree that death is the gift of humankind, that to live too long means that one becomes a stranger in world altered beyond recognition. Even in my small fifty years I have seen urban sprawl take hillsides and drop strip malls and monotonous homes that took beauty and turned it into mediocrity.
Yet, I still have work to be done before the gulls call me to my Grey Havens. It is very important to recall the words that Frodo said to Sam, "and you will read things out of the Red Book and keep alive the memory of an age that is gone, so that people will remember the Great Danger and so love their beloved land all the more. And that will keep you as busy and as happy as anyone can be, as long as your part in the Story goes on."

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:54 am

Wonderful insights, Lindariel and Bruce. It didn't occur to me that Lotho might indeed have been, um, dispatched right within the wall of Bag End. That would certainly make it a place full of ghosts.

Tolkien must certainly have felt that his experiences in the war placed him in need of some kind of redemption. I wonder if we can look at his creation of the great myth as an attempt to work that out, to exorcize the ghosts, to make meaning where it appeared there might have been none?

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:02 pm

Merry, I have no doubt that Tolkien was illuminating, and to a certain extent exorcising, his memories of the horrors of World War I in LOTR. Many soldiers who survive horrible battles in which many of their buddies are killed often ask, "Why am I alive?" It can be a terrible struggle to find a way back to "normal" life after such a devastating experience.

I think Frodo must have often wondered why he was still alive after all that had happened to him . . . and also after having succumbed to the power of the Ring at the very edge of the Cracks of Doom. I can believe that must have weighed on him heavily, even though no other living creature would ever have gotten as far.

I know that Tolkien completely absolves Frodo of this "failure," declaring in Letter 181 that "The Quest was bound to fail as a piece of world-plan, and also was bound to end in disaster as the story of humble Frodo's development to the 'noble,' his sanctification. Fail it would and did as far as Frodo considered alone was concerned. He 'apostatcized' . . . . But at this point the 'salvation' of the world and Frodo's own 'salvation' is achieved by his previous pity and forgiveness of injury . . . . By a situation created by his 'forgiveness,' he was saved himself and relieved of his burden."

But, I do wonder if Frodo saw it that way. Or if, perhaps, in his darkest hours, he believed that he failed, that Middle-earth was actually saved by Gollum's clumsiness, and that the honors accorded to him were not really deserved. Yet another reason for him to withdraw from public life and ultimately forsake Middle-earth for the Undying Lands.

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:16 pm

Perhaps this is why Frodo is such a beloved hero, is anyone's life but a testimony to what we have done despite ourselves?
Merry, in all this good discussion, you forgot to post your question and hopefully another round of good insights.

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:50 pm

I have been waiting for hope to confirm that my answer was correct, which has been our pattern.

To take another angle on the question, I think it was Shippey who exposits on the name 'Sackville-Baggins', which contains both the age-old debate about whether we carry our lunch in a sack or a bag and the uppity Frenchified language that our author so despised. And, of course, can anyone named 'Lotho' be beloved?

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:28 pm

Yoo hoo, hope? I'll be bold and assume my answer was correct.

Level 1: To get us into the family trees again, how were Lotho and Frodo related?

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:52 pm

Or is the handy carry-all one uses to tote daily items, a book-bag, a ruck sack, or back-pack? America is sort of a clearing house for all words and then throws them into a hopper where they are ground into pulp and re made into the most unusual words.
As to Frodo and Lotho, if all the distant relations were computed and figured out I think that Lotho would turn out to be his step sister twice removed for failing to pay the rent.

But seriously, Bilbo was Lotho's cousin so........

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:54 pm

If I read the Baggins family tree in the Appendices correctly, Frodo and Lotho would be third cousins. Frodo's great-grandfather Largo Baggins and Lotho's great-grandfather Mungo Baggins were brothers.

Lotho and Bilbo would be first cousins once removed. Lotho's father Otho was Bilbo's first cousin.

As mentioned before, Bilbo and Frodo are also first cousins once removed (not uncle and nephew as in PJ's movie). Frodo's father Drogo was Bilbo's first cousin.

OK . . . once again . . . eyes crossing over hobbit family trees . . .

Merry · Post by **Merry** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:15 am

Bruce!

Lindariel, your cross-eyed efforts were spot on nonetheless. Your turn . . .

Lindariel · Post by **Lindariel** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:17 pm

OK, here's a Level One question:

According to legend, what was the origin of the mearas?

bruce rerek · Post by **bruce rerek** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:51 pm

At a recent phone interview, which is rare for Shadowfax, he was questioned about many things. Rumors had been circulating that he would come out of retirement and race at Saratoga with Tom Cruise. He would not confirm or deny such plans but said that he kept an open mind on all things.
When asked about his origins he did confirm that he was a decendant of Felarof, the white horse that had killed Leod of Calenardhorn when he attempted to master him. His son Eorl found the horse and demanded his service as payment for his father's death. Eorl would come to establish Rohan after coming to the aid of the Steward Cirion with Felarof as his steed.