Middle-earth Journeys

We'll have to find that quote, Merry!

I'll have some time to work on it tomorrow!

I'm sure many people would say Boromir was arrogant (his actions show as much most of the time), yet I have known people in real life who show arrogance who, in their heart and soul, really aren't arrogant at all. It's not that they are lying or anything, simply that at their core they have integrity and values that they would die for. Their appearance seems arrogant and they often would be deemed thick-headed. I see something much deeper in them, and in Boromir. It's more of a surface arrogance.

I'm reminded of the moments before Boromir's death when he calls Aragorn his brother, and his king. I think that is the real heart of Boromir. And, when he was protecting Merry and Pippin, with no thought for his own safety.

Arrogance with heart and soul. Maybe that's a label I can live with for Boromir.

I'll give you this about Boromir: he loved his country. I think he was sincere in that.

I'm going to spend some time tomorrow collecting some quotes from LOTR about Boromir and Faramir to see what they show. But I'm pretty sure the 'my brother, my captain, my king' line was from the movie, not the book. (That's not to say it wasn't a good line! ) I still find it difficult to keep the two sources straight, but they do often times show two different characters.

Yes, Merry, you are right about the "my brother, my captain, my King," quote. That was pure PJ & Co., and certainly a wonderful, wonderful line, but it did NOT come from The Professor. It is one of the things PJ & Co. did that I strongly wished WAS in Tolkien's beautiful tale. The other was the scene between Aragorn and Frodo on Amon Hen -- I so heartily wish that Aragorn had been given his moment to fully face and turn down the call of the Ring, just as Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, and Faramir do. I suppose the scene during the Council of Elrond, in which Frodo says to Aragorn, "Then it belongs to you, and not to me at all!" and Aragorn replies, "It does not belong to either of us, but it has been ordained that you should hold it for a while," could constitute that moment, but it lacks the pure dramatic satisfaction of that tension charged moment on Amon Hen that PJ & Co. created, because there Frodo and Aragorn are completely alone and the choice is very, very real.

Merri, you will find as you peruse these threads that we are constantly endeavoring to make distinctions between The Professor's original tale and Peter Jackson's marvelous films. We all deeply appreciate PJ's efforts, but he and his crew did indeed take many, many liberties with The Professor's story, and we try very hard in our discussions to keep to Tolkien's original intent as much as possible.

Merry, I'm going to join you on the search for those quotes about Boromir and Faramir. I love BOTH of the brothers, but I think I would prefer to have Faramir protect me in a pinch. He was an equally skilled warrior and leader of men -- I do believe Boromir even says so, or perhaps it was Beregond or Bergil -- but he also had wisdom, scholarship, and a flair for romance that his older brother lacked. Yup, give me Faramir any day!

Lindariel, don't spend a lot of time skimming text today. I just found an essay on Faramir which, I imagine, includes every quote on our hero:

http://www.lotrplaza.com/forum/forum_po ... TID=227379

This will save us some time!

Thanks for the link to this essay, Merry. It is interesting, although in my opinion it would greatly benefit from some rather heavy editing (horribly redundant in many places). The author also goes off on a few unfortunate tangents. But by and large, the piece manages to hit all of the highlights about Faramir and includes more than likely every single quote associated with him, as you mentioned! A time saver indeed, as long as you plow through the detritus.

I agree with your assessment: good research, not sure what the point was!

Okay, here are some relevant quotes:

In TT, book 4, ch. 5, Faramir says that Boromir was 'proud', 'often rash', 'anxious . . . for his own glory', and 'hardier' than he was.

In ROTK, book 6, ch. 5, Eowyn 'knew, for she was bred among men of war, that here was one whom no Rider of the Mark would outmatch in battle.' (I had this a bit wrong before!)

In ROTK, book 5, ch. 1, Beregond says, 'He is bold, more bold than many deem; for in these days men are slow to believe that a captain can be wise and learned in the scrolls of lore and song, as he is, and yet a man of hardihood and swift judgement in the field. But such is Faramir. Less reckless and eager than Boromir, but not less resolute.'

In ROTK, book 5, ch. 4, when Faramir and his company are being attacked by the Nazgul, Beregond calls him 'Brave heart! But how can he win to the Gate, if these foul hell-hawks have other weapons than fear? But look! They hold on. They will make the Gate. No! the horses are running mad. Look! the men are thrown; they are running on foot. No, one is still up, but he rides back to the others. That will be the Captain: he can master both beasts and men.'

In Appendix A, part iv, 'He [Faramir] was gentle in bearing, and a lover of lore and of music, and therefore by many in those days his courage was judged less than his brother's. But it was not so, except that he did not seek glory in danger without a purpose. . .It did not seem possible to Faramir than any one in Gondor could rival Boromir, heir of Denethor, Captain of the White Tower; and of like mind was Boromir. Yet it proved otherwise at the test.'

My summation: Boromir might have been a hair better in battle itself, but his rashness and sense of self-importance made him less useful, even as a soldier. And, as I think we all agree, the overall character of Faramir was superior. Gandalf said that the blood of Westernesse ran 'nearly true' in Faramir, but not in Boromir. In other language, Faramir was in the 'high' category of men while Boromir was in the middle category, interested in war only for its own sake.

Wow Merry I'm impressed and convinced Faramir is the one to vote for. Having given this more thought it seems Boromir had faults a plenty but what of Faramir's faults. But then again, the Ring given a chance would have surely challenged that.

Well done, Merry. You have cited all of the passages I had in mind.

Philipa, I think there is one fault that can be laid at Faramir's feet, if you can call it a fault and certainly even then an understandable one, and that is a tendency towards martyrdom:

"I do not oppose your will, sire. Since you are robbed of Boromir, I will go and do what I can in his stead -- if you command it."

"I do so," said Denethor.

"Then farewell!" said Faramir. "But if I should return, think better of me!"

"That depends on the manner of your return," said Denethor . . . .

"Do not throw your life away rashly or in bitterness," he [Gandalf] said. "You will be needed here, for other things than war. Your father loves you, Faramir, and will remember it ere the end. Farewell!"

There is very much the sense here that Faramir believes he can only win his father's regard by dying in battle at his Lord's behest. I do think this goes beyond humility and scrapes up against self-abasement and martyrdom. "He'll be sorry when I'm gone/dead."

Now Denethor is truly horrible to his youngest son, so as I said, this is absolutely an understandable fault, if you can even bear to label it a fault. Both men were operating under a terrible load of stress and grief.

Thanks! Faramir has always been my favorite, possibly even over Aragorn! And of course, the Professor tells us that Faramir is the character that he most identifies with, except for not having Faramir's courage.

Yes, Lindariel, this is certainly a heart-breaking relationship and series of events. In terms of causes, I think we need to add that it was not irrational for the people of Minas Tirith to believe that they were all going to die anyway. They didn't know of the Muster of Rohan (Hirgon hadn't returned with the Red Arrow) and even Gandalf thought that the possibility of Frodo succeeding in his quest was just 'a fool's hope'. So, in Faramir's mind, all that remained was to choose the manner of his death, and he chose to act like the Captain he was, rather than suicide, as Denethor chose, or flight.

So I guess I don't see this as a fault of Faramir's, but rather the best choice he could make in a pretty bad situation. Gandalf's advice to him before he left, I think, wasn't that he shouldn't go on the sortie at all, but that he should exercise all due caution possible in such dire straits.

Of course, as a Catholic, I love our martyrs!

I just knew I should have grabbed the book to look up that quote. I wouldn't have found it! Drat!

I remember, after seeing the first movie, re-reading all three books and thinking, "See! I didn't think so-and-so said that and I didn't think they said it where the movie said they said it, either." I can see it would be wise to re-read the books once again (such a hardship! Ha!) so I can remember the real writing, rather than the movie images/words. So many times they seem to intertwine, but then also seem a bit off. That's usually when I think something in my brain is triggering me to read the original work again.

Fascinating discussion, by the way.

We all get confused between the sources, Merri, so no worries! I suppose that is a testimony to the power of the movies. But, in my mind, if I'm looking for wisdom, I'd rather rely on Tolkien than Peter Jackson!

Well said, Merry!