Middle-earth Journeys

bruce rerek wrote:I have been re-reading Turin's tale. Would anyone care to discuss this sad epic and if so shall we begin with the question of was he doomed by Morgoth or by his own character?

Great question bruce. I too, will be reading this again. It has been awhile for me too.

Bruce, give me a day to answer...I have just landed on this part of the story for the second time, and right now, doomed by character is my feeling

This is something I find interesting too - it will make a great discussion! There are so many things that happen to him that seem like cruel twists of fate beyond his control that I might go for Morgoth's curse. Then again I might change my mind when I've read it again!

To me, these definitely come under those 'cruel twists of fate' :

Finding and marrying Niniel his sister without knowing who she was.
Killing his best friend, Beleg, before recognising him.

I'm sure there are more. But his difficult character is what dooms him to leave Thingol's halls and become an oulaw by refusing to lay aside his pride and explain the death of Saeros .

What most piques my interest in Turin is that of the classic Shakesperean and Greek tragedies, that of hubris. Turin's childhood is most sad, the loss of his father, a mother who is stoic to the point of being unfeeling, and being taken to an unfamiliar place and people. Morwen's pride kept her from leaving her homeland of Dor-lomin and ultimately commiting her duaghter to the same unhappy fate as her son.
As he entered maturity Turin displayed a noble bearing but a temper that would be the undoing of many including himself. Saeros had no right to taunt and creuly insult him, and eventually duel with Turin. As in so many other instances anger and revenge was pleased by the outcome of spilled blood.
Although absolved of the taking of life, Turin chose to be the leader of wild men than that of a adopted elvin prince. Worse he claimed the Dragon Helm as his. Its one thing to take on a dragon, but to wear his helm is an open invitation to its wrath. As we read in the Hobbit, never laugh at a living dragon.
In his arrogance, Turin thinks by just changing his name the doom of Morgoth upon his father can be diverted. After the disaster of Beleg, Turin comes to Nargothrond and the love of Finduilas comes between Turin and Gwindor. Although Gwindor does not begrudge this love he does inform her that Turin has a doom far greater than the Younger (men) upon him. Turin believes this was told out of spite that his doomed name will spell his unhappy life. Yet the truth is clearly stated by Gwindor, The doom lies in yourself, not in your name.
As we have read, the rest of this sad tale sees the sack of Nargothrond, the death of Finduilas, and the wickedness of Glaurung. Is it not ironic that the reforged sword of the dark elf who's dart was intended for Maeglin came to Turin and into the belly of Glaurung? The First Age's Road to Perdition is it not?

Finally finished this very sad, sorry tale and would have to change my opinion. Morgoth seemed esp. bent on destroying Húrin and his son and pretty much everyone else connected w/ them. While the clan seemed to have a rash, foolhardy streak ( even the women), Morgoth played that rather well. Perhaps if Túrin and his band of wild men had not killed Mîm's oldest son, the events following that may have turned out differently or at least taken another course.

I like the comparison to Shakespearean and Greek Tragedy, Bruce! There are so many parallels. In Shakespearean Tragedy the protagonist is doomed by a fatal flaw in his character, in Greek Tragedy the protagonist is doomed by the gods after he or his family has crossed them in some way.

It seems to me that Turin was doomed both ways from the moment he lost his father and was exiled from his true inheritance and home. It shaped his character which became hard and grief-ridden. But fate was also working against him through the hatred of Morgoth. In a way there was no escape for him, either by character or circumstance. If Morgoth hadn't cursed him I think all would still have gone wrong and ended badly, but Morgoth's Doom meant that his fate was particularly cruel - killing his best friend in ignorance and, also in ignorance, marrying a sister inadvertantly causing her death. Turin carried his Doom both within and without.

Granted, there is much peril and pain in the Sil. I think this story is very important to set up the Lord of the Rings to understand how fearful Aragorn was of his fate. I take Tolkien's use of dragon's as a manifiestation of radical evil, greedy without knowlege of value, creul without reason, vain yet putrid, and mighty but almost comicaly vulenrable.

Your discussion has caused me to ponder what Tolkien must have thought about the concept of Fate. While it certainly would have been attractive because of its dramatic possibilities and its connection with Greek myth, I don't think he could have accepted it as such, an impersonal causal factor at work in the world, because of his worldview. Fate's close relatives, luck and chance, were invoked in LOTR, for example, only to be rejected in favor of 'it was meant to be--i.e., Eru and the Valar have a hand in this matter.

So Turin's character flaws and choices, combined with Morgoth's evil, add up to look like a situation that is just doomed.

Bruce, I never thought of Aragorn's examination of his 'fate' going back that far. But I suppose that it would have been a vivid example of how bad it can get having a demi-god pissed off at you! (Clearly my language choices are not as elegant as Tolkien's! )

I find the story as you all have thought. In all of Tolkien's works both the will of the gods and the will of mortals or semi mortals all play into an on going drama. From having lived to see my son come of age, I can safely say that what my late mother, Peg often said is true: If you want to make God laugh tell him your plans.
The story of Turin could be that of Agamemnon or Macbeth or for that matter reflect the mistakes we have commited in thinking we knew what we were doing. I think that Aragorn's hesitation of becoming King was that he knew well the histories of both men and elves. Never before had the dark forces ever been bested, and even when Narsil severed Sauron's hand, the One Ring betrayed Isildur to his death. It is a strange fate the nature of power, too little and one is defeted, too much and one become the inslaver. Often we see this theme in the Professor's works.
Shall we now discuss Earendil and Elwing? One major theme established is that of the longing of returning to the sea. Often do we see this in the works culminating to the Grey Havens in the Return of the King.

Before we dispense with the subject of Turin Turambar, allow me to share a fascinating tidbit I just discovered today. I recently purchased a copy of The Lost Road and Other Writings: Language and Legend before The Lord of the Rings, Volume 5 of Christopher Tolkien's History of Middle-earth series. In the section on the Conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion, Christopher provides the following "earlier language" that was excised from the edited version that was ultimately published. It apparently was intended to follow the section on the banishment of Morgoth into the Void after the end of the War of Wrath.

Thus spoke Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whipsered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.

Fascinating, yes? Bruce, I think you would probably find it particularly interesting to see that the sword originally forged by Eol the Dark Elf and then reforged into the black sword of Turin Turambar was at one point intended to deliver the ultimate death stroke to Morgoth! Also, very, VERY interesting that of all Men, Turin is granted this special task, along with the grace of being declared a son of the Valar.

Feanor is redeemed from his folly by giving the Silmarils to Yavanna for the rekindling of the Two Trees! Earendel (Tolkien's earlier spelling) has a major role to play!

Another unrelated thought that leaped out at me from this passage is that of the Silmarils being recovered out of Air, Earth/Fire (the published Silmarillion declares that this one was lost in "the fires of the heart of the world"), and Sea. How interesting that when it came time for Celebrimbor to fashion the three elven Rings, they also are identified with these same elements -- Vilya (Air), Nenya (Water/Sea), and Narya (Fire). For some reason, I never made that connection before, and I'm slapping myself on the head now, because it seems rather obvious!

Once again, I find myself overcome with regret that the Professor's life ended before he had a chance to complete his editing and rewriting of The Silmarillion himself. Who knows what he might have ultimately decided to do with this material? But I think it is so FASCINATING to finally see some inkling of what he intended the "End of Endings" to be like. It is also VERY interesting to see that he STILL leaves the ultimate fate of Men uncertain! Men must have faith!

Wow! That is a great ending, isn't it? So many things restored and made right. Your point about Men still requiring faith is brilliant, Lindariel. Thanks for the great eschatalogical quote!

Thanks for finding that, Lindariel! I wonder why, of all men in his tales, Tolkien chose Turin to play the biggest part here? I'm supposing it's because he suffered the most at Morgoth's hands. But to be the only Man who's fate is named in the last days is really extraordinary. Tolkien must have had such a huge empathy for Turin at the time of writing this, to award him that role and that honour.

The phrase 'and the Elves awake and all their dead arise' is interesting. Why 'awake'? As this was early I suppose it could have been left out because it doesn't fit in with Tolkien's final ideas as to what happened to Elves and Men.

What I have always been facinated about Tolkien is the eucatastrophic ending of the tales, that one gets a vision of the transfiguration of the world to come. That Turin would deliver the death stroke against Morgoth is poetic justice. The reason I brought up this tale is because its one of the Professor's most complex and complete pieice. That is doesn't end in the happy ending catagory is even more compelling. Morgoth's ire is not satisfied, his chief demon is dispatched and although a father must witness his son's death at his own hands it is a hollow victory.
Your observation that the fashioning of the rings of power were repeating the crafting of the silmarillions is spot on. Is it not ironic that in the 20th century science found ways of eradicating the most deadly of diseases and at the same time it also invented the technology to turn the planet into a ball of carbon?

I'm not quite up on the cast of the Sil, so I had to look up Fionwe, who was also called Eonwe--here's a link if you also need a little reminder:

Eonwe

I, too, find it interesting that Turin gets the job of dispatching Melkor. Tulkas makes sense--he's the big warrior of the Valar, right? Lindariel, I had noticed that water/air/fire trinity before, both in the Rings and the places where the Silmarils end up. We have a trinity of another kind to face Melkor at the end. Is Turin in all his suffering a kind of Christ figure who finally brings salvation to the world?

It IS good to see Earendil again. But his final action is separate from the three who take on Melkor--Tolkien is really working the trinitarian symbolism here. One gets the feeling that he is saving these last roles for his favorite characters. I also like it that Eru Iluvatar doesn't just come down and smite Melkor, whom He created.

Does any of our readers wish to discuss Numenor and its tales?