Middle-earth Journeys

Congrats Lindariel!

So now my question to you is, how do you train your hubby to give you gifts like that? After 10 yrs of trying to train him and even giving him wish lists, I'm afraid my hubby is still a bad gifter (as evidenced by, among other things, a package of turkey string (to prepare a turkey for roasting) he gave me for my birthday not too long ago, though he did hit a homerun this Christmas ).

Perhaps we need to take this to another thread? Or you can PM me if you like.

Merry wrote:I'm not sure if this is the best place to put this, but here goes anyway! I received a newsletter from Notre Dame University this week that described a series of lectures there this fall that focused on Tolkien's Catholicism. Tolkien scholars Ralph Wood, Joseph Pearce, Mary Keys and Greg Wright were the featured scholars. Here's an interesting quote about Wood's lecture:

Tolkien depicts our modern culture in a unique way by using the image of the One Ring in The Lord of the Rings. For example, the Ring has the quality of deathlessness which has the effect of making the Ring-bearers live longer, but not necessarily of living, or dying, well. The quality of the Ring stands in stark contrast to the Catholic ideal of a good and holy death, such as that made by Boromir.

I'm not a big fan of Boromir! But I think it's interesting to contrast the living death of the Nazgul or Gollum with Boromir's death. I suppose it was better for Boromir to die than to get the Ring. I've always wondered if, had Boromir lived, his desire for the Ring would have been extinguished after Amon Hen.

Sorry--this really get's us off the topic of 'Tolkien the Man', doesn't it? Maybe Garth could speculate about how many soldiers Tolkien saw die like Boromir. Would he say that any of them were 'good deaths'?

A 'good' death or a 'living' death associated with the Ring is an interesting one. Such a manly man's death Boromir's death was. Dying for one's country and king and all. Yet the living death (so to speak) is an unnatural one. Another one of Tolkien's thought of straying away from natural order of things is a bad thing perhaps.

I wish my head was in a better place tonight. This would be a fascinating topic to discuss.

Merry wrote:I'm not a big fan of Boromir! But I think it's interesting to contrast the living death of the Nazgul or Gollum with Boromir's death. I suppose it was better for Boromir to die than to get the Ring. I've always wondered if, had Boromir lived, his desire for the Ring would have been extinguished after Amon Hen.

Merry, I don't see anything in the events taking place at Amon Hen to indicate that Boromir would have changed. Sure, he protected Merry and Pippin, but he was supposed to do that anyway if he was an honorable man. Even if Frodo and Sam had left for the Emyn Muil and Boromir had gone off with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli in pursuit of Pippin and Merry, all the indications that Tolkien gave us via his writings in The History of Middle-earth is that Boromir would have allied himself with Saruman and challenged Aragorn for the right to rule Gondor.

It seems from all the writings that I have seen that eventually Tolkien had Boromir's heart turn dark. Too much like his father?

Riv Res wrote

It seems from all the writings that I have seen that eventually Tolkien had Boromir's heart turn dark. Too much like his father?

I agree. Tolkien I feel illustrates this well with

Boromir was loyal to me and no wizards pupil. He would have remembered his fathers need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift.

This implies that Denethor knew his son well and therefore sent the son most likely to achieve his desire for the one ring.

I agree. Even after he tried to take the Ring from Frodo by force and Frodo disappeared, Boromir didn't tell the rest of the Fellowship what happened, even though Frodo was in mortal danger. Aragorn may have forgiven him, but I haven't!

(Don't criticize in front of the Boromir-lovers over at WRoR, though! They're fierce in their loyalty!)

Maybe this is another item to be filed under 'death as the gift of Eru to Men'.

I would not disagree that Boromir's actions were reprehensible, or that Tolkien probably intended him to be an example of how the Ring could so easily corrupt Men who desired power, whether for themselves or for some worthier end--Boromir probably falls into both catagories, since he was ambitious for himself but also concerned with Gondor. Yet I don't think it's quite that simple--we must not forget that this man had earned the admiration and love of many worthy peers--Eomer, his own brother Faramir, and Aragorn, to name a few. They must have seen something in him. And his actions before the Ring took him had ever been honorable and brave--all loved him in his homeland, and Tolkien indicates he took care of his less favored brother with real love. I can never get out of my mind a more lasting image of him for me than the man who tried to take the Ring--of Boromir on his face in the dirt, crying--asking "What have I done?" over and over. He knew the depths of his betrayal of Frodo--and it would take a very strong man indeed to face one such as Aragorn with that realization about yourself. And I think Aragorn understood that. Remember too, a dark-hearted man would never have so mourned by ones such as Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn--who in one of LOTR most poignant passages, rememberd to comb his hair when they laid him in the boat. That is not just pity--that is love.

And now the Boromir defenders have had a say.

See, I told you about the people at WRoR!

Charter members of the Society for the Protection of Gondorians. We forgive Captains General, offer solace and affection to unloved younger sons, and give unconditional, undying love to returned monarchs. Sorry, no elves, dwarves, Rohirrim, or hobbits--they have their own charities! PS--Please excuse my errors-I have the typing skills of Bill the Pony

PS--Please excuse my errors-I have the typing skills of Bill the Pony

Let us hope the 'Charter members of the Society for the Protection of Gondorians' fight better then they spell. Honestly, I don't spell worth a hill of mushrooms myself.

Philipa wrote:

PS--Please excuse my errors-I have the typing skills of Bill the Pony

Let us hope the 'Charter members of the Society for the Protection of Gondorians' fight better then they spell. Honestly, I don't spell worth a hill of mushrooms myself.

I'll let you all in on a little secret of mine: [hide]I use an online dictionary![/hide] Works every time!

But you see it's not really the spelling--it is the typing. I need a service that types for me--or a Star Trek computer to whom I can talk and he/she will type for me. PS Perhaps a Gondorian archivist?

librislove wrote:I would not disagree that Boromir's actions were reprehensible, or that Tolkien probably intended him to be an example of how the Ring could so easily corrupt Men who desired power, whether for themselves or for some worthier end--Boromir probably falls into both catagories, since he was ambitious for himself but also concerned with Gondor. Yet I don't think it's quite that simple--we must not forget that this man had earned the admiration and love of many worthy peers--Eomer, his own brother Faramir, and Aragorn, to name a few. They must have seen something in him. And his actions before the Ring took him had ever been honorable and brave--all loved him in his homeland, and Tolkien indicates he took care of his less favored brother with real love. I can never get out of my mind a more lasting image of him for me than the man who tried to take the Ring--of Boromir on his face in the dirt, crying--asking "What have I done?" over and over. He knew the depths of his betrayal of Frodo--and it would take a very strong man indeed to face one such as Aragorn with that realization about yourself. And I think Aragorn understood that. Remember too, a dark-hearted man would never have so mourned by ones such as Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn--who in one of LOTR most poignant passages, rememberd to comb his hair when they laid him in the boat. That is not just pity--that is love.

And now the Boromir defenders have had a say.

I have to agree with this. I actually think that he was put up as an example of how one who's intentions were honourable and who thought himself strong, could so easily be swayed by the power of the ring.
Boromir was indeed loved by many and I believe he did ultimately understand the terrible stength of the ring, but it was too late for him.

Also, his death was another landmark for Legolas. He had experienced the grief of 'losing' Gandalf and then he had to face another bereavement. Something he was not used to.

Good point about Legolas, Leggy. Since I don't focus too much on Elves, I tend to forget that contact with other Races in Middle Earth is a learning experience for them, too. Legolas' contact with and love for beings of mortal races will acquaint him with more grief than most of his kindred.

Exactly!
Elves can only be killed in battle, so his experience of losing someone he loves is non-existent. Then he goes and loses Gandalf, (well he thinks he has), Boromir and then he thinks he has lost Aragorn, whom he considers kin. He cannot grasp that he may have to leave him lost.