Discussions of Tolkien Language
-
- Posts: 1062
- Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:30 pm
- Location: The Hall of Fire, Imladris (otherwise known as Northern Virginia)
Merry, how about using a little Quenya? "Maruvan" means "abide" or "stay." The word appears in Aragorn's "chant" at his coronation, specifically:
Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.
In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.
By the way, "maruvan" has the same number of letters as "welcome." Convenient, yes?
Another Sindarin possibility would be "mellon," which means "friend." Hmmmm . . . the password to Moria . . . "Speak 'friend' and enter."
Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.
In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.
By the way, "maruvan" has the same number of letters as "welcome." Convenient, yes?
Another Sindarin possibility would be "mellon," which means "friend." Hmmmm . . . the password to Moria . . . "Speak 'friend' and enter."
Lindariel
“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”

“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”
-
- Posts: 171
- Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:07 pm
- Location: Misty Mountains
Merry, you may find this Q&A with David Salointeresting to read. Also has some possibly helpful links.
Namarie,
Airwin
Airwin
-
- Varda
- Posts: 3263
- Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
- Location: Middle-west
-
- Uinen
- Posts: 2339
- Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:21 pm
- Location: Washing my hair in the Sundering Sea
This is all very interesting. I haven't found as much about elvish on the internet as I thought so the David Salo link is very helpful. I remember him talking on the Tolkien documentaries for the films.
Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
-
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:18 am
- Location: Cape Town, South Africa
I found this place where one can learn the vocabulary behind quenya, sindarin, khuzdul (dwarf speech), black speech, primitive elvish and more!!!
(surfing when one's bored sometimes does pay off)
its: http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf
I've made a file filled with the good stuff and hopefully soon i'll be learning the beautiful languages.

(surfing when one's bored sometimes does pay off)
its: http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf
I've made a file filled with the good stuff and hopefully soon i'll be learning the beautiful languages.

-
- Uinen
- Posts: 2339
- Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:21 pm
- Location: Washing my hair in the Sundering Sea
Thank you Lyanness! Riv has it up on our links page but until your post I'd never visited that site before
. I'm glad you highlighted it for us. It looks as though you can get lost in it for hours and hours and hours! Now I've had a brief look around it's got me hooked
.


Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
-
- Varda
- Posts: 3263
- Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
- Location: Middle-west
I've been enjoying the headlines from the Great Years Calendar! Today's reference to Zirak-zigil has coincided for me with the You Tube tape of Tolkien's interview, during which he says that the dwarves are like Jews. I've read this remark before, out of context, and it has always made me cringe. But in context, he says that dwarvish is like Hebrew--of course, when Tolkien claims similarity, he's talking about linguistic similarity! (At least I hope so! Anti-semitism was probably alive and well during his day.) So I know nothing about Hebrew at all, but it occured to me today that a word like 'Zirak-zigil' might have Hebrew roots. Do we have any experts out there?
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
-
- Uinen
- Posts: 2339
- Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:21 pm
- Location: Washing my hair in the Sundering Sea
Here's an interesting quote from his letters, Merry. He's talking about a broadcast of LotR which he didn't enjoy, except for the fact they took trouble to get the names correct. But he did like the way Gloin was portrayed apart from being a bit too exaggerated and someone's idea (clearly not his) of Germanic:
Letter to Naomi Mitchison, 8 December 1955:
Interesting.
Letter to Naomi Mitchison, 8 December 1955:
So it's not only the language but the context that it's evolved in. A language that isn't spoken by anyone but them amongst themselves, a sense of themselves as a people that isn't eroded by exile or by living with others.I do think of the 'Dawrves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue...'
Interesting.
Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
-
- Varda
- Posts: 3263
- Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
- Location: Middle-west
Yes, it is interesting. Thanks, Iolanthe. I know I've seen the idea in some other context as well, so it must have been a fairly consistent idea for him. So far, nothing overtly anti-Semitic, which is a relief.
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
-
- Uinen
- Posts: 2339
- Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:21 pm
- Location: Washing my hair in the Sundering Sea
I think his thoughts were very, very far from that. When Allen and Unwin negotiated a deal for a German translation in 1938 the German publishers asked for confirmation if he was of 'arisch' (aryan) origin. It really made him bristle and confirms that he had some idea of what was going on in Germany at the time:
Letter to Stanley Unwin, 25 July 1938

Letter to Stanley Unwin, 25 July 1938
He included two draft letters to the Publishers Rutten & Loening Verlag for Unwin to look at and this one (probably the unsent one as Unwin still had it in his papers) really lays into them:Personally I should be inclined to refuse to give any Bestatignung (although it happens that I can), and let a German translation go hang. In any case I should object strongly to any such declaration appearing in print. I do not regard the (probable) absence of all Jewish blood as necessarily honourable; and I have many Jewish friends, and should regret giving any colour to the notion that I subscribe to the wholly pernicious and unscientific race-doctrine.
Don't mess with the ProfessorThank you for your letter....I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction; that is Indo-iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people...

Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather...
-
- Varda
- Posts: 3263
- Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
- Location: Middle-west
-
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:19 pm
- Location: England
Merry I went looking for "zirak" or "zigil" and found nothing in any language that I could search online. But there's a possible similarity in the Assyrian word "ziggurat"
that's from an etymological dictionary. "Zirak-zigil" is a mountain, maybe this was lurking at the back of his mind?ziggurat
1877, from Assyrian ziqquratu "height, pinnacle," from zaqaru "to be high."
-
- Varda
- Posts: 3263
- Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:01 am
- Location: Middle-west
-
- Uinen
- Posts: 2339
- Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:21 pm
- Location: Washing my hair in the Sundering Sea