Tolkien and Home

A place where members present scholastic ideas for discussion.
MICHKA
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Re: Tolkien and Home

Post by MICHKA » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:13 am

je voudrais revenir sur le terme'' simple '' pour la maison d'Elrond, je donne plusieurs définitions du mot dans le dictionnairedes synonymes: Pure, familière, humble, modeste,naturelle, classique, facile. Alors je pense que Tolkien voulait peut-être dire ''agréable, conviviale, chaleureuse, ouverte'' la dernière maison des elfes à accueillir favorablement les visiteurs. Ne croyez-vous pas?
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Philipa
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Re: Tolkien and Home

Post by Philipa » Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:01 pm

Yes Michka I think that is exactly what he meant. If a traveler could find Rivendell, they were welcome to stay in comfort. :lol:
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Lindariel
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Re: Tolkien and Home

Post by Lindariel » Thu Feb 20, 2014 6:02 pm

Thanks, Lindariel! So if Rivendell was besieged by Angmar, he at least knew where it was? Is the fact the Rivendell wasn't attacked again due to Angmar's being driven away later? And if Angmar knew, Sauron eventually knew, right?
I don't know that Angmar necessarily knew how to find the hidden path into Rivendell, but he was aware enough of where it lay generally in order to surround and besiege Elrond's realm, preventing anyone from getting in or getting out safely. Cirdan and Arthedain led a concerted attack in 1465 that broke the siege and drove the Witch-King from the North Downs. After that, it seems the Witch-King concentrated more on bringing down the remaining Kingdoms of Men in Arnor -- Rhudaur, Arthedain, and Cardolan. He was finally defeated at the Battle of Fornost in 1975 when his forces were caught in a pincer between the combined forces of Cirdan and Earnur coming from the coast and Elrond's forces under Glorfindel coming from Rivendell.

And yes, I would certainly assume that if the Witch-King knew the general location of Elrond's realm, then Sauron did as well.

Also, Elrond's people both before and after Angmar's rule from time to time had to repel attacks from the orcs of Mount Gundabad in the MIsty Mountains, located right in the middle of Angmar's territory. These are the orcs, along with the orcs of Moria, that riddled the Misty Mountains and who were responsible for the attack on Celebrian's cortege and the attack on Thorin's party. These are also the orcs terrorized for more than 500 years by Elrond's sons!
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“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”

Merry
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Re: Tolkien and Home

Post by Merry » Fri Feb 21, 2014 4:57 pm

Hmmm. The sons of Elrond as terrorists: I think we have argued about this before!

It's interesting to think about how such a siege could be arranged. It must have been a huge encircling--lots of orcpower.

Back to Riv Res' original point, though, the relative safety of Rivendell might have had something to do with the 'hominess' of the place. I think somebody in LOTR said that, were Sauron to regain the Ring, Rivendell would be the last place to fall.
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Lindariel
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Re: Tolkien and Home

Post by Lindariel » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:33 pm

Merry, the person who said that was Gandalf to Frodo after Frodo awoke in Rivendell. Here's the quote:
"What about Rivendell and the Elves? Is Rivendell safe?"

"Yes, at present, until all else is conquered. The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power."
I think Gandalf's quote makes another important point that differentiates Galadriel's realm in Lothlorien from Elrond's in Rivendell. In Lothlorien, Galadriel is the only person to have lived in the Undying Lands, whereas in Rivendell, there are several including Glorfindel and Erestor and others who are not named; remember, Elrond hosts the last remnant of the Noldor in Middle-earth there in Rivendell, so there would be a number of his folk who once lived in the Undying Lands. And even though Elrond himself was born in Middle-earth, the blood of Luthien and Melian the Maia flows in his veins, which combined with the power of Vilya makes him quite formidable. This confers an additional advantage to Elrond's realm that Galadriel does not have.

As far as labeling Elrond's sons "terrorists," it was certainly not my intention to do so, although from the orcs' point of view, I imagine that's exactly how they are regarded. "But her brothers, Elladan and Elrohir, were out upon errantry: for they rode often far afield with the Rangers of the North, forgetting never their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs." I think it's pretty clear that after the loss of their mother, Elladan and Elrohir spent a good bit of their time orc hunting!
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“Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be! And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be.”

MICHKA
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Re: Tolkien and Home

Post by MICHKA » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:18 pm

Vous êtes si savante en littérature ''tolkienienne'' que c'est éblouissant, vous expliquez tant de choses et c'est un réel plaisir de vous lire, au moins je comprends davantage tous les détails et les épisodes infinis du monde créé par cet auteur prolifique et talentueux mais un peu compliqué à suivre souvent #-o :idea: :clapping: merci
Tout ce que nous avons à décider c'est ce que nous devons faire du temps qui nous est imparti

Merry
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Re: Tolkien and Home

Post by Merry » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:40 am

You know, I don't read a lot of fantasy. When I do, it's trying to find someone like Tolkien. I read way too many volumes of The Game of Thrones before I quit! Tolkien has the right mixture of big picture and perfect detail, as well as being rooted in what is, in my judgment, the best philosophy Western civilization has ever produced.

So, yes, it is complicated to follow! I don't know that it's possible to know all there is to know about it. Do you think Shippey or any of the other big scholars ever get to the point when the might say, 'Yep, I've got it all!'?
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

MICHKA
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Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:45 am

Re: Tolkien and Home

Post by MICHKA » Sat Feb 22, 2014 12:48 pm

Je viens de revisionner les bonus de LOTR , et chaque fois les historiens et spécialistes de Tolkien qui viennent en parler me semblent parfaits dans leur parcours et j'aime beaucoup leur avis et leur définition de son écriture. On apprend toujours des choses nouvelles en revoyant ,avec le recul, les appendices du film comme dans ceux du roman
Tout ce que nous avons à décider c'est ce que nous devons faire du temps qui nous est imparti

Riv Res
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Re: Tolkien and Home

Post by Riv Res » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:02 pm

Merry wrote: Back to Riv Res' original point, though, the relative safety of Rivendell might have had something to do with the 'hominess' of the place. I think somebody in LOTR said that, were Sauron to regain the Ring, Rivendell would be the last place to fall.
I think perhaps Tolkien painted Rivendell a little differently here ... homey (sp?) ... because of it's location along the East Road. As conditions began to deteriorate with the rise of power by Sauron once again, I think it became more important to have that distinction. It became virtually the ONE place to get to on your East Road journey where you would be safe and content. With Bree and Weathertop (which were all too evidently susceptible to evil doings) on one side and Mirkwood and Dol Goldur on the other, it be came a needed port in the the storm. But ... after reading The Hobbit again, it is evident that Rivendell had this reputation even before things heated up too much. Perhaps it is because it lay, again on the East Road, and that was a key route for the the Elves who traveled to the Grey Havens on their journey to the West.

At any rate, it seems to have this unique aura and presence among the Elf dwellings of Middle-earth. I like it. :D

Philipa
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Re: Tolkien and Home

Post by Philipa » Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:12 pm

Hmm, last safe haven = the last homely house, I suppose you could be right Riv.
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Merry
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Re: Tolkien and Home

Post by Merry » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:06 am

For what it's worth, Tyler's Tolkien Companion says that Rivendell was known to Elves as 'The Last Homely House East of the Sea', so I guess we got the short version!

Another question: is there any record of dwarves or hobbits visiting Rivendell before Thorin's company in The Hobbit?

Another little contribution; I was just reading this last night: before Sam leaves Rivendell on the way back to Hobbiton, he says that there's a bit of everything there: the Shire, Gondor, the Golden Wood, mountains, I forget what else. Frodo replies, yes, everything but the sea, prefiguring, I guess, his own last trip. Perhaps Tolkien meant Rivendell to be the embodiment or heart of Middle-earth, that which is not over sea. Also, both 'Imladris' and 'Rivendell' derive from the valley in which it was situated. Acknowledging the importance of words to Tolkien, that must mean something, too!
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Riv Res
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Re: Tolkien and Home

Post by Riv Res » Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:24 am

I believe that it was Lindariel who gave us a nice summary a few posts back. Here is another from the Tolkien Gateway that had a couple of surprises for me ...
Rivendell, or Imladris, was an Elven dwelling in the Misty Mountains on the eastern edge of Eriador. It was also called "The Last Homely House East of the Sea", a reference to Valinor west of the sea, and the First Homely House, so called because it was the last outpost in the relatively civilised lands of Eriador before a traveller crossed the Misty Mountains and entered the Wilds of Rhovanion. It was established by Elrond in the Second Age as a refuge from Sauron after the fall of Eregion. Besides Elrond himself, notable Elves who lived there included Arwen and Glorfindel.

Rivendell was located at the edge of a narrow gorge of the Bruinen River, but well hidden in the moorlands and foothills of the Misty Mountains.[source?]

Elrond established Imladris in S.A. 1697 during the War of the Elves and Sauron.[1] In Elrond's following at that time were both Elves from Lindon whom he had led in battle to defend Eregion and those Elves who had fled Eregion when it was destroyed. Many more refugees joined Elrond's host as Sauron ravaged Eriador during the course of the war. By S.A. 1700, Imladris, despite being besieged, was the only part of Eriador not under Sauron's control. It was liberated after Gil-galad's forces, strengthened by the armament sent by Tar-Minastir, routed Sauron's armies and drove him out of Eriador. A Council was held at that time, establishing Elrond as Gil-galad's vice-regent in Eriador and that Imladris should be maintained as an Elvish stronghold.[2]

At the end of the Second Age, Elendil and Gil-galad formed the Last Alliance of Elves and Men to challenge Sauron, and their host halted for a while at Imladris before crossing the Misty Mountains.[3] Isildur's wife and his youngest son, Valandil, were in Imladris at that time, and Isildur was journeying back to them after Sauron's defeat when he was ambushed at the Gladden Fields.[4] After receiving the shards of Narsil, Valandil took up his role as King of Arnor and left Imladris for Annúminas.[3]

After the fall of Gil-galad, Elrond remained in Imladris. During the Third Age it was a refuge and sanctuary; many Elves gathered there, and it was the chief dwelling of the High Elves in Eriador. The heirs of Isildur were also harbored there due to their kinship with Elrond, as descendants of his brother Elros.[3] Rivendell maintained this special relationship with the North Kingdom throughout the Third Age, and Elrond and his people remained steadfast allies to the heirs of Isildur.

Situated on the western slopes of the Misty Mountains, Rivendell was on the eastern edge of Arnor, close to the province of Rhudaur which became independent during the disintegration of the North Kingdom in T.A. 861. Danger came to Eriador around T.A. 1300 when the witch-kingdom of Angmar was established in the north-east beyond the Ettenmoors. It was during the late reign of Arveleg I that Rivendell was besieged by Angmar. After an incursion by Angmar into Eriador in T.A. 1409, the Elvenfolk of Rivendell joined those of Lindon in subduing the power of the Witch-king for many years.[5]

After the end of the North-kingdom in T.A. 1975 Aranarth, the first Chieftain of the Dúnedain, had his son fostered in Rivendell, as were all subsequent sons of the chieftains. The heirlooms and treasures of the house of Isildur, including the shards of Narsil, were also kept there after Arvedui's death.[5] Among these were also some of the few remaining documents containing the history of Númenor.[6]

There was traffic across the Misty Mountains in the Third Age between Imladris and Lórien, for Elrond's wife was Celebrían, daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn.

In the Quest of Erebor, Bilbo Baggins stopped off at Rivendell with the Dwarves on the way to the Lonely Mountain and also on the way back to the Shire with Gandalf.[7]

Years later, Frodo Baggins and his companions journeyed to Rivendell, where they met with Bilbo, who had retired there after his 111th birthday, spending his time on his memoir, There and Back Again. Several other Elves, Dwarves and Men had also arrived at Rivendell on separate errands;[8] at the Council of Elrond they learned that all of their errands were related to the fate of the One Ring, and they had to decide what to do about it. In the end, the Hobbits influenced the decision.[9]

Rivendell ("cloven-dell") is the Common Speech translation of the Sindarin name Imladris ("deep dale of the cleft").[10] An alternative (or complementary) etymology, gives Rivendell as the Englished version of the Westron name Karningul (itself a translation of Imladris).[11]

The name Imladris is also glossed as "Canyon of the Cleft"[12] and "flat-floared valley of the Cleft".[13]
Hmmm ... they call it the First Homely House.

Merry
Varda
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Re: Tolkien and Home

Post by Merry » Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:11 am

Guess it depends on which way you're going!
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.

Philipa
Ulmo
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Re: Tolkien and Home

Post by Philipa » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:33 pm

Wow, I had forgotten most of that. Thanks for typing all that out.
After the end of the North-kingdom in T.A. 1975 Aranarth, the first Chieftain of the Dúnedain, had his son fostered in Rivendell, as were all subsequent sons of the chieftains.
So, Aragorn wasn't the first nor maybe the last Dúnedain's son to grow up in Imladris! Well this explains why the Rangers of the north were so chummy with Elrond's sons in LOTR. Those Rangers may have also lived awhile in Imladris too?

This may take us off topic however I have a question sparked by this conversation. Is the reason only Elrond's sons go to the aid of Gondor because there wasn't sufficient enough elves left in Imladris to create an army?
Aiya Earendil Elenion Ancalima!

Thoughts from Eryn Lasgalen An online guide to all things Tolkien

Riv Res
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Re: Tolkien and Home

Post by Riv Res » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:59 pm

Philipa wrote: This may take us off topic however I have a question sparked by this conversation. Is the reason only Elrond's sons go to the aid of Gondor because there wasn't sufficient enough elves left in Imladris to create an army?
I thought that the reason they came alone to help Aragorn was because the rest of the Elves had to help defend Rivendell and the surrounding areas from attack by Sauron. There was the attack on Erebor, plus the attack on the Elves in Mirkwood ... if I am not mistaken. :-k

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